Discussion:
Yet another awesome engineering coup for the PRC! -- so, how's come the Dalai Lama doesn't have a space program and a hydrogen bomb program, huh?
(too old to reply)
cupcake
2003-10-10 16:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Date: 10/10/03 9:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time
China Confirms Launch Date Next Week for First Manned Space Mission;
14 Orbits Planned
By Ted Anthony Associated Press Writer
Published: Oct 10, 2003
BEIJING (AP) - After a decade of preparation and months of
speculation, China made a concrete commitment Friday to human space
travel, announcing plans to launch a manned capsule into orbit next
week and enter one of mankind's most rarefied clubs - that of the
spacefaring nations.
The tentative date: between Wednesday and Friday of next week, "at a
proper time." The number of orbits for the still-unidentified first
Chinese "taikonaut" and the Shenzhou 5 craft: 14.
the chinese are too much. its all a game of face for them. russia, america. now
china. the chinese are certainly going to be the decideing factor in this
century.
i will probably not be alive when the invasion of asia happens but i might.
fuck the invasion of Asia! -- what the hell are we gonna
do about these fucking Islamics! ?
B
petie
punnadhammo
2003-10-10 20:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Just think how far the US space program would be if they stopped
wasting all their talent and money on trying to conquer all the
oil-producing regions of the world.
Awaken21
2003-10-13 17:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by punnadhammo
Just think how far the US space program would be if they stopped
wasting all their talent and money on trying to conquer all the
oil-producing regions of the world.
Probably not very far at all, unfortunately. Funding for NASA was kept
alive all these years because of military interests. Space is the
ultimate strategic high ground and very powerful people within the US
military structure have been aware of this fact since the late
sixties. The US space program has had many powerful opponents over the
years and probably would not exist today if it didn't have military
applications.
punnadhammo
2003-10-13 19:09:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Probably not very far at all, unfortunately. Funding for NASA was kept
alive all these years because of military interests. Space is the
ultimate strategic high ground and very powerful people within the US
military structure have been aware of this fact since the late
sixties. The US space program has had many powerful opponents over the
years and probably would not exist today if it didn't have military
applications.
Maybe if we could convince the american administration that there's oil
on Mars they'd suddenly discover a need to "liberate it".
Awaken21
2003-10-14 13:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by punnadhammo
Post by Awaken21
Probably not very far at all, unfortunately. Funding for NASA was kept
alive all these years because of military interests. Space is the
ultimate strategic high ground and very powerful people within the US
military structure have been aware of this fact since the late
sixties. The US space program has had many powerful opponents over the
years and probably would not exist today if it didn't have military
applications.
Maybe if we could convince the american administration that there's oil
on Mars they'd suddenly discover a need to "liberate it".
Actually since no one is living there, I suspect we would simply annex
it, begin exploitation and dare anyone to say otherwise or act against
us.
Ananda
2003-10-15 02:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Actually since no one is living there, I suspect we would simply annex
it, begin exploitation and dare anyone to say otherwise or act against
us.
you can then add a planet to the 52 stars in the flag
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-15 02:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
Actually since no one is living there, I suspect we would simply annex
it, begin exploitation and dare anyone to say otherwise or act against
us.
you can then add a planet to the 52 stars in the flag
actually, you can't. there is international
"space law" which prevented the US from
claiming the moon.
Ananda
2003-10-15 05:06:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
Actually since no one is living there, I suspect we would simply annex
it, begin exploitation and dare anyone to say otherwise or act against
us.
you can then add a planet to the 52 stars in the flag
actually, you can't. there is international
"space law" which prevented the US from
claiming the moon.
Simple solution to that. Just claim that Al Qaeda has set up terrorist base
base in Mars and then just send the marines in to take over Mars. Hehehehe
cupcake
2003-10-15 05:15:41 UTC
Permalink
China Launches Manned Space Mission, Becoming Third Spacefaring Nation
By Christopher Bodeen Associated Press Writer
Published: Oct 14, 2003


GOBI DESERT, China (AP) - China launched its first manned space
mission on Wednesday, becoming the third country in history to send a
person into orbit - four decades after the former Soviet Union and the
United States.

With a column of smoke, the Shenzhou 5 craft cut across a bright,
azure northwest China sky at exactly 9 a.m. Wednesday (9 p.m. EDT
Tuesday) and went into orbit 10 minutes later. The official Xinhua
News Agency immediately confirmed the launch and said the astronaut
was air force Lt. Col. Yang Liwei, 38.

"China's first manned spacecraft, the Shenzhou 5, blasted off," Xinhua
said. China Central Television's Channel One, the government's
flagship station, cut into its programming to announce the launch. The
station later showed Shenzhou streaking into the sky and disappearing,
its tracer billowing behind it.

Minutes after the launch, a CCTV announcer said that Shenzhou 5 and
Yang had "entered orbit at 9:10." Xinhua said Yang was "reading a
flight manual in the capsule of the Shenzhou-5 spacecraft and looked
composed and at ease."

State media say the manned flight is expected to last about 20 hours.

"I feel good," Yang radioed back from space after a half-hour in
flight, according to Xinhua. He told his doctor that his blood
pressure and other vital signs were "normal."

Then a bit of cool astronaut bravado: "See you tomorrow."

Li Jinai, chief commander of the country's manned space program, was
quoted by Xinhua as saying the spacecraft was operating normally...
Awaken21
2003-10-15 14:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ananda
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
Actually since no one is living there, I suspect we would simply annex
it, begin exploitation and dare anyone to say otherwise or act against
us.
you can then add a planet to the 52 stars in the flag
actually, you can't. there is international
"space law" which prevented the US from
claiming the moon.
Simple solution to that. Just claim that Al Qaeda has set up terrorist base
base in Mars and then just send the marines in to take over Mars. Hehehehe
Laws without ability to enforce are not as binding as one might wish.
No country or group of countries can currently enforce international
law against the US due to our military strength. International Law is
a very interesting recent development however, it is still in
development. It will be a while before it will have ability to effect
the will a nation with complete global and economic dominance.

The fact that we currently choose to respect that particular request
from the international community is a question of benefit vs
detriment, not really the international law itself.

I'm sure we could market the intelligence to indicate they are
planning on mining and throwing huge rocks at the US from Mars,
therefore it is the duty of every patriotic american to support the
effort to go immediately out there and protect the oil.

Most Americans to bought the link between Bagdhad and the Twin Towers
despite the overwhelming lack of evidence. Our soldiers carry 9/11
momentos with them in to battle and believe with all their hearts and
minds that they are avenging our fallen american heros. The propaganda
side of this operation is a complete and undeniable victory. This Mars
thing would be a cake walk.
Ananda
2003-10-16 01:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Laws without ability to enforce are not as binding as one might wish.
No country or group of countries can currently enforce international
law against the US due to our military strength. International Law is
a very interesting recent development however, it is still in
development. It will be a while before it will have ability to effect
the will a nation with complete global and economic dominance.
The fact that we currently choose to respect that particular request
from the international community is a question of benefit vs
detriment, not really the international law itself.
This is for discussion sake nothing personal ok . Not to long ago, it was
the Americans who persuaded the British and the French to give up their
colonial powers to respect the local people to self governing. It is simply
the fact that after ww2 the colonial powers were facing increasing
difficulty to govern given the fact that weapons are easily available to the
local militias after ww2. Take for example, the Indonesians actually kicked
out the Portugese and the Dutch from Indonesia themselves through the
weapons supplied to them during the ww2. And the Vietnamese kicked out the
French after the war. Mao kicked out the corrupted Chinese Soviet during the
that time was actively supporting communists groups against the Americans
was the major supplier of weapons to these groups. You are forgetting the
Fidel Castro in Cuba too. Until today he is still there. It would be to the
Americans interest to keep the international Law than to break them as it
serves the Amricans well.
Post by Awaken21
I'm sure we could market the intelligence to indicate they are
planning on mining and throwing huge rocks at the US from Mars,
therefore it is the duty of every patriotic american to support the
effort to go immediately out there and protect the oil.
Most Americans to bought the link between Bagdhad and the Twin Towers
despite the overwhelming lack of evidence. Our soldiers carry 9/11
momentos with them in to battle and believe with all their hearts and
minds that they are avenging our fallen american heros. The propaganda
side of this operation is a complete and undeniable victory. This Mars
thing would be a cake walk.
Awaken21
2003-10-16 16:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
Laws without ability to enforce are not as binding as one might wish.
No country or group of countries can currently enforce international
law against the US due to our military strength. International Law is
a very interesting recent development however, it is still in
development. It will be a while before it will have ability to effect
the will a nation with complete global and economic dominance.
The fact that we currently choose to respect that particular request
from the international community is a question of benefit vs
detriment, not really the international law itself.
This is for discussion sake nothing personal ok . Not to long ago, it was
the Americans who persuaded the British and the French to give up their
colonial powers to respect the local people to self governing. It is simply
the fact that after ww2 the colonial powers were facing increasing
difficulty to govern given the fact that weapons are easily available to the
local militias after ww2. Take for example, the Indonesians actually kicked
out the Portugese and the Dutch from Indonesia themselves through the
weapons supplied to them during the ww2. And the Vietnamese kicked out the
French after the war. Mao kicked out the corrupted Chinese Soviet during the
that time was actively supporting communists groups against the Americans
was the major supplier of weapons to these groups. You are forgetting the
Fidel Castro in Cuba too. Until today he is still there. It would be to the
Americans interest to keep the international Law than to break them as it
serves the Amricans well.
The current administration does not seem interested in long term
benefit outside of it's own ideology. They do not consult with anyone
outside of their own narrow ideological beliefs, even within their own
party ranks the ideological centrists are treated rather harshly.
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
I'm sure we could market the intelligence to indicate they are
planning on mining and throwing huge rocks at the US from Mars,
therefore it is the duty of every patriotic american to support the
effort to go immediately out there and protect the oil.
Most Americans to bought the link between Bagdhad and the Twin Towers
despite the overwhelming lack of evidence. Our soldiers carry 9/11
momentos with them in to battle and believe with all their hearts and
minds that they are avenging our fallen american heros. The propaganda
side of this operation is a complete and undeniable victory. This Mars
thing would be a cake walk.
Ananda
2003-10-18 02:40:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
The current administration does not seem interested in long term
benefit outside of it's own ideology. They do not consult with anyone
outside of their own narrow ideological beliefs, even within their own
party ranks the ideological centrists are treated rather harshly.
The dangerous part is US is setting a precedence for small countries with
powerful armies like for example Israel, to take pre-emptive strike against
their enemies without any impunity.
Awaken21
2003-10-20 16:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
The current administration does not seem interested in long term
benefit outside of it's own ideology. They do not consult with anyone
outside of their own narrow ideological beliefs, even within their own
party ranks the ideological centrists are treated rather harshly.
The dangerous part is US is setting a precedence for small countries with
powerful armies like for example Israel, to take pre-emptive strike against
their enemies without any impunity.
The precedent is dangerous for all countries long term, imo. At this
point it's easy for us to embrace because no country will premptively
strike at the U.S. because of our military dominance. That may not be
true when my daughter is my age, or her children....
jhayati
2003-10-20 23:48:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
The current administration does not seem interested in long term
benefit outside of it's own ideology. They do not consult with anyone
outside of their own narrow ideological beliefs, even within their own
party ranks the ideological centrists are treated rather harshly.
The dangerous part is US is setting a precedence for small countries with
powerful armies like for example Israel, to take pre-emptive strike against
their enemies without any impunity.
The precedent is dangerous for all countries long term, imo. At this
point it's easy for us to embrace because no country will premptively
strike at the U.S. because of our military dominance.
Evidently you haven't been around the last two years. The worse
strike on our soil in U.S. history occurred just over two years ago.
And our response was rational, compassionate, and carefully executed.
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent will of
our opposition, and allow them to hurt su, is seen as negative. On
this list, Ch'an Foo and cupcake would be happy to see me dead, but I
have the power to plonk them; similarly, the U.S. has the ability to
ignore the craven ill wishes of France and others, and ignoring them
and making the best choices we can is admirable.

- jay
Ananda
2003-10-21 00:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Evidently you haven't been around the last two years. The worse
strike on our soil in U.S. history occurred just over two years ago.
And our response was rational, compassionate, and carefully executed.
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent will of
our opposition, and allow them to hurt su, is seen as negative. On
this list, Ch'an Foo and cupcake would be happy to see me dead, but I
have the power to plonk them; similarly, the U.S. has the ability to
ignore the craven ill wishes of France and others, and ignoring them
and making the best choices we can is admirable.
- jay
You must be skipping your history lesson again. The Japs did the honour of
first strike in Pearl harbour during WWII. So in your case hanging a serial
killer is compassionate thing because you will be doing a pre-emptive
killing to prevent further killing of innocent people? That must be
honourable and admirable thing?
Ananda
2003-10-21 01:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ananda
Post by jhayati
Evidently you haven't been around the last two years. The worse
strike on our soil in U.S. history occurred just over two years ago.
And our response was rational, compassionate, and carefully executed.
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent will of
our opposition, and allow them to hurt su, is seen as negative. On
this list, Ch'an Foo and cupcake would be happy to see me dead, but I
have the power to plonk them; similarly, the U.S. has the ability to
ignore the craven ill wishes of France and others, and ignoring them
and making the best choices we can is admirable.
- jay
You must be skipping your history lesson again. The Japs did the honour of
first strike in Pearl harbour during WWII. So in your case hanging a serial
killer is compassionate thing because you will be doing a pre-emptive
killing to prevent further killing of innocent people? That must be
honourable and admirable thing?
How about chopping off a thief's hand who was caught stealing? We would be
doing the society a great honour of pre-emptive strike against further theft
by that serial thief by chopping his/her hand off.

Or cutting a liar's tongue off to prevent further lying.

Or stoning an adulterator to prevent further adultery.

Or burning a witch to prevent further witchery

Or whipping a drunk to prevent further drunk behaviour....
jhayati
2003-10-21 06:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ananda
Post by Ananda
Post by jhayati
Evidently you haven't been around the last two years. The worse
strike on our soil in U.S. history occurred just over two years ago.
And our response was rational, compassionate, and carefully executed.
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent will of
our opposition, and allow them to hurt su, is seen as negative. On
this list, Ch'an Foo and cupcake would be happy to see me dead, but I
have the power to plonk them; similarly, the U.S. has the ability to
ignore the craven ill wishes of France and others, and ignoring them
and making the best choices we can is admirable.
- jay
You must be skipping your history lesson again. The Japs did the honour
of first strike in Pearl harbour during WWII.
As did Islamic militants in 9/11. I never claimed we started WWII.
Post by Ananda
Post by Ananda
So in your case hanging a serial killer is compassionate thing
No, I am completely against capital punishment.

Sounds like you don't want to have a discussion, but rather want to
attribute the exact opposite position I hold to me and then spit out
insults.
Post by Ananda
Post by Ananda
because you will be doing a pre-emptive killing to prevent further
killing of innocent people? That must be honourable and admirable thing?
Are you talking about some case where he couldn't be imprisoned, or is
this just a random stupid comment? I suppose what you mean here is "I
have no argument and your reasoning is excellent, so I'll make up
something stupid".
Post by Ananda
How about chopping off a thief's hand who was caught stealing?
Again, because I'm against such nonsense, I'm for invading hateful
places that do such things and democratizing them.
Post by Ananda
We would be doing the society a great honour of pre-emptive strike
Well we would, if we stopped them from savage behavior against their
people, sure. Or we could sit back and let them kill each other. I
would ask what we have to gain, and if we can gain, and we can stop
such savagery, then we should invade them.
Post by Ananda
Or cutting a liar's tongue off to prevent further lying.
Or stoning an adulterator to prevent further adultery.
Or burning a witch to prevent further witchery
Or whipping a drunk to prevent further drunk behaviour....
I'm not sure why you support regimes that do these sadistic things,
but I'm sure most of the anti-war crowd gets off on such
'multicultural' practices as well and secretly is disapppointed when
we bring them down. I find such multicultural practices to be
disgusting and am for pre-emptively taking down governments and
cultures that do such things. With such atrocities taking place, it
would be well worth many civilian casualties in order to bring
freedom, democracy, and Baywatch reruns to such cultures.

- jay
Ananda
2003-10-21 14:13:23 UTC
Permalink
This is really boring topic. I hope that we can agree to disagree on this
topic so that we can go on to more interesting topic.
Post by jhayati
As did Islamic militants in 9/11. I never claimed we started WWII.
Post by Ananda
Post by Ananda
So in your case hanging a serial killer is compassionate thing
No, I am completely against capital punishment.
Sounds like you don't want to have a discussion, but rather want to
attribute the exact opposite position I hold to me and then spit out
insults.
Post by Ananda
Post by Ananda
because you will be doing a pre-emptive killing to prevent further
killing of innocent people? That must be honourable and admirable thing?
Are you talking about some case where he couldn't be imprisoned, or is
this just a random stupid comment? I suppose what you mean here is "I
have no argument and your reasoning is excellent, so I'll make up
something stupid".
Post by Ananda
How about chopping off a thief's hand who was caught stealing?
Again, because I'm against such nonsense, I'm for invading hateful
places that do such things and democratizing them.
Post by Ananda
We would be doing the society a great honour of pre-emptive strike
Well we would, if we stopped them from savage behavior against their
people, sure. Or we could sit back and let them kill each other. I
would ask what we have to gain, and if we can gain, and we can stop
such savagery, then we should invade them.
Post by Ananda
Or cutting a liar's tongue off to prevent further lying.
Or stoning an adulterator to prevent further adultery.
Or burning a witch to prevent further witchery
Or whipping a drunk to prevent further drunk behaviour....
I'm not sure why you support regimes that do these sadistic things,
but I'm sure most of the anti-war crowd gets off on such
'multicultural' practices as well and secretly is disapppointed when
we bring them down. I find such multicultural practices to be
disgusting and am for pre-emptively taking down governments and
cultures that do such things. With such atrocities taking place, it
would be well worth many civilian casualties in order to bring
freedom, democracy, and Baywatch reruns to such cultures.
- jay
jhayati
2003-10-21 20:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ananda
This is really boring topic. I hope that we can agree to disagree on this
topic so that we can go on to more interesting topic.
Ok.

- j
Post by Ananda
Post by jhayati
As did Islamic militants in 9/11. I never claimed we started WWII.
Post by Ananda
Post by Ananda
So in your case hanging a serial killer is compassionate thing
No, I am completely against capital punishment.
Sounds like you don't want to have a discussion, but rather want to
attribute the exact opposite position I hold to me and then spit out
insults.
Post by Ananda
Post by Ananda
because you will be doing a pre-emptive killing to prevent further
killing of innocent people? That must be honourable and admirable
thing?
Post by jhayati
Are you talking about some case where he couldn't be imprisoned, or is
this just a random stupid comment? I suppose what you mean here is "I
have no argument and your reasoning is excellent, so I'll make up
something stupid".
Post by Ananda
How about chopping off a thief's hand who was caught stealing?
Again, because I'm against such nonsense, I'm for invading hateful
places that do such things and democratizing them.
Post by Ananda
We would be doing the society a great honour of pre-emptive strike
Well we would, if we stopped them from savage behavior against their
people, sure. Or we could sit back and let them kill each other. I
would ask what we have to gain, and if we can gain, and we can stop
such savagery, then we should invade them.
William Tucker
2003-10-21 04:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
The current administration does not seem interested in long term
benefit outside of it's own ideology. They do not consult with anyone
outside of their own narrow ideological beliefs, even within their own
party ranks the ideological centrists are treated rather harshly.
The dangerous part is US is setting a precedence for small countries with
powerful armies like for example Israel, to take pre-emptive strike against
their enemies without any impunity.
The precedent is dangerous for all countries long term, imo. At this
point it's easy for us to embrace because no country will premptively
strike at the U.S. because of our military dominance.
Evidently you haven't been around the last two years. The worse
strike on our soil in U.S. history occurred just over two years ago.
And our response was rational, compassionate, and carefully executed.
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent
burns
Post by jhayati
will of
our opposition,
and allen
Post by jhayati
and allow them to hurt su, is seen as negative. On
this list, Ch'an Foo and cupcake would be happy to see me dead,
in an emotional sense yes, then you wouldn't be so reactive

physically...who cares

if you're telling what you perceive of as the truth a great deal
of you is dead...to reality
Post by jhayati
but I
have the power to plonk them; similarly, the U.S. has the ability to
ignore the craven ill wishes of France and others, and ignoring them
and making the best choices we can is admirable.
Awaken21
2003-10-21 15:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
The current administration does not seem interested in long term
benefit outside of it's own ideology. They do not consult with
anyone
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
outside of their own narrow ideological beliefs, even within their
own
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
party ranks the ideological centrists are treated rather harshly.
The dangerous part is US is setting a precedence for small countries
with
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
powerful armies like for example Israel, to take pre-emptive strike
against
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
their enemies without any impunity.
The precedent is dangerous for all countries long term, imo. At this
point it's easy for us to embrace because no country will premptively
strike at the U.S. because of our military dominance.
Evidently you haven't been around the last two years. The worse
strike on our soil in U.S. history occurred just over two years ago.
And our response was rational, compassionate, and carefully executed.
hmmm...I think it started out that way.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent
We are moving for thier benefit but without their consent. That makes
us look like bullies not matter what our intention.
Post by Awaken21
burns
Post by jhayati
will of
our opposition,
and allen
Post by jhayati
and allow them to hurt su, is seen as negative. On
this list, Ch'an Foo and cupcake would be happy to see me dead,
in an emotional sense yes, then you wouldn't be so reactive
physically...who cares
if you're telling what you perceive of as the truth a great deal
of you is dead...to reality
Post by jhayati
but I
have the power to plonk them; similarly, the U.S. has the ability to
ignore the craven ill wishes of France and others, and ignoring them
and making the best choices we can is admirable.
Yes, the U.S. knows what's good for every single human wheather they
like it, or believe the same or not. And our policy is to implement
those plans wheather they like it, or believe the same or not.

I personally prefer a more consultative style of leadership. I think
the people who are affected by plans should be involved at the
planning stage. Involved meaning their concerns and opinions are heard
and given consideration, early in the process.
William Tucker
2003-10-21 17:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
The current administration does not seem interested in long term
benefit outside of it's own ideology. They do not consult with
anyone
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
outside of their own narrow ideological beliefs, even within their
own
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
Post by Awaken21
party ranks the ideological centrists are treated rather harshly.
The dangerous part is US is setting a precedence for small countries
with
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
powerful armies like for example Israel, to take pre-emptive strike
against
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Ananda
their enemies without any impunity.
The precedent is dangerous for all countries long term, imo. At this
point it's easy for us to embrace because no country will premptively
strike at the U.S. because of our military dominance.
Evidently you haven't been around the last two years. The worse
strike on our soil in U.S. history occurred just over two years ago.
And our response was rational, compassionate, and carefully executed.
hmmm...I think it started out that way.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent
We are moving for thier benefit but without their consent. That makes
us look like bullies not matter what our intention.
Post by Awaken21
burns
Post by jhayati
will of
our opposition,
and allen
Post by jhayati
and allow them to hurt su, is seen as negative. On
this list, Ch'an Foo and cupcake would be happy to see me dead,
in an emotional sense yes, then you wouldn't be so reactive
physically...who cares
if you're telling what you perceive of as the truth a great deal
of you is dead...to reality
Post by jhayati
but I
have the power to plonk them; similarly, the U.S. has the ability to
ignore the craven ill wishes of France and others, and ignoring them
and making the best choices we can is admirable.
Yes, the U.S. knows what's good for every single human wheather they
like it, or believe the same or not. And our policy is to implement
those plans wheather they like it, or believe the same or not.
I personally prefer a more consultative style of leadership. I think
the people who are affected by plans should be involved at the
planning stage. Involved meaning their concerns and opinions are heard
and given consideration, early in the process.
yes


the principles of democracy are being circumvented


if you remember Ross Perot

his biggest contribution was that he created an atmosphere where
issues were discussed because he had nothing to lose
as did Paul Tsongas because of illness

he pointed out the lack of substance...in the "debates'
avoiding issues to appeal to the ignorants who
can deal only with appearance....which would be
most of the world..and those vulnerable to staying within
the lines in the coloring book of life...the thoughtless/unheard/sheep

unfortunately, we've gone back to oligarchy

it's no longer "we the people"

it's "we the monied"....and that is not "America"

that is the monied as in INTERNATIONAL

one WORLD ECONOMY "for the rich"


as it was more so prior to 1900's


I don't mean the venture into Iraq was for that purpose
but things are rapidly heading in that direction

homeward, mostly because of the economic issues, fear,
psuedo-nationalistic attitude, declining commercial morals,


the united states never stood for just the "united states"
a sloganized thing

but liberty, truth, justice, democracy and so on real values

not psuedo values...appeal to authority/emotionalism....leading
the debate...crap pots posting emotionalism as the truth


sorry...it just seems that amazing grace has left town
and is being replaced by "more" of nothing
jhayati
2003-10-21 23:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent
We are moving for their benefit but without their consent.
That makes us look like bullies not matter what our intention.
No, a bully doesn't work for others' benefits. Rather, it makes them
look like irresponsible teenagers. Intervening when someone is
hurting themselves as well as others is often the best course of
action for everyone.
Yes, the U.S. knows what's good for every single human wheather they
like it, or believe the same or not. And our policy is to implement
those plans wheather they like it, or believe the same or not.
The question is not whether the U.S. is omniscient, as you suggest,
but rather whether the U.S.'s knows better than Saddam what's good for
the millions of Iraqis that were being dominated in his totalitarian
regime. Do you think Saddam knew what was best for Iraqis and had
their best interests in mind? That's really the question you are
asking. Iraqis had no say with Saddam as dictator, but now they will
have a say.
I personally prefer a more consultative style of leadership. I think
the people who are affected by plans should be involved at the
planning stage. Involved meaning their concerns and opinions are heard
and given consideration, early in the process.
Isn't that what's going on now, so that instead of a dictator the
Iraqis will be able to hold elections next year? I think that what
you're saying is pretty much the gameplan.

- jay
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-21 23:51:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
The question is not whether the U.S. is omniscient, as you suggest,
but rather whether the U.S.'s knows better than Saddam what's good for
the millions of Iraqis that were being dominated in his totalitarian
regime. Do you think Saddam knew what was best for Iraqis and had
their best interests in mind? That's really the question you are
asking. Iraqis had no say with Saddam as dictator, but now they will
have a say.
dear froot loop, the US of A did not
go to war to free the Iraqi people and
they had nothing to say about it
Awaken21
2003-10-22 14:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by jhayati
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent
We are moving for their benefit but without their consent.
That makes us look like bullies not matter what our intention.
No, a bully doesn't work for others' benefits. Rather, it makes them
look like irresponsible teenagers. Intervening when someone is
hurting themselves as well as others is often the best course of
action for everyone.
Well that's a school yard bully. However an adult bully is someone who
tries to impose their will on you despite your feelings, or concerns,
etc.
Post by jhayati
Yes, the U.S. knows what's good for every single human wheather they
like it, or believe the same or not. And our policy is to implement
those plans wheather they like it, or believe the same or not.
The question is not whether the U.S. is omniscient, as you suggest,
but rather whether the U.S.'s knows better than Saddam what's good for
the millions of Iraqis that were being dominated in his totalitarian
regime. Do you think Saddam knew what was best for Iraqis and had
their best interests in mind?
My issue is with the attitude that what Saddam was doing to his people
was an issue. If it were an issue we'd be in Cuba now. It's not an
issue, even the administration voiced this particular opinion far away
from the inner circle. We don't invade or move militarily on a country
based on internal problems, we base it on efficacy of foriegn policy,
which IMO is a good thing.


That's really the question you are
Post by jhayati
asking. Iraqis had no say with Saddam as dictator, but now they will
have a say.
They may not be ready. You seem to see democracy as a stabilizing
influence however I think history has not really supported this
theory.
Post by jhayati
I personally prefer a more consultative style of leadership. I think
the people who are affected by plans should be involved at the
planning stage. Involved meaning their concerns and opinions are heard
and given consideration, early in the process.
Isn't that what's going on now, so that instead of a dictator the
Iraqis will be able to hold elections next year? I think that what
you're saying is pretty much the gameplan.
- jay
My view includes the whole world, not just Iraq.
jhayati
2003-10-22 19:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by jhayati
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent
We are moving for their benefit but without their consent.
That makes us look like bullies not matter what our intention.
No, a bully doesn't work for others' benefits. Rather, it makes them
look like irresponsible teenagers. Intervening when someone is
hurting themselves as well as others is often the best course of
action for everyone.
Well that's a school yard bully. However an adult bully is someone who
tries to impose their will on you despite your feelings, or concerns,
No, that's called a parent, who makes you study when you want to watch
TV. Of course, we all thought of our parents as bullies. I still do.
But thanks to them I've been getting educated and I'm nice to other
people.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
The question is not whether the U.S. is omniscient, as you suggest,
but rather whether the U.S.'s knows better than Saddam what's good for
the millions of Iraqis that were being dominated in his totalitarian
regime. Do you think Saddam knew what was best for Iraqis and had
their best interests in mind?
My issue is with the attitude that what Saddam was doing to his people
was an issue. If it were an issue we'd be in Cuba now.
It is an issue, but Castro isn't a threat for perpetuating militant
islamists, nor is there any reason to believe he could make
connections with groups like al qa'eda. Cuba isn't vital
strategically. Therefore, while we isolate Cuba as long as there is a
dictatorship, there is no threat to us that warrants an invasion that
would cost lives.
Post by Awaken21
They may not be ready. You seem to see democracy as a stabilizing
influence however I think history has not really supported this
theory.
Modern history dramatically supports this, especially when it comes to
wars. If you want to argue that totalitarian and Stalinist states are
more stable, that would be interesting. Start with Saddam.

You do bring out what I think underlies all this: the hatred of
democracy and freedom. Anyway, what history do think supports the
idea that fascist or communist dictators bring more stability and
peace to the world? Go for it.

- jay
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-22 19:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by jhayati
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent
We are moving for their benefit but without their consent.
That makes us look like bullies not matter what our intention.
No, a bully doesn't work for others' benefits. Rather, it makes them
look like irresponsible teenagers. Intervening when someone is
hurting themselves as well as others is often the best course of
action for everyone.
Well that's a school yard bully. However an adult bully is someone who
tries to impose their will on you despite your feelings, or concerns,
No, that's called a parent, who makes you study when you want to watch
TV. Of course, we all thought of our parents as bullies. I still do.
But thanks to them I've been getting educated and I'm nice to other
people.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
The question is not whether the U.S. is omniscient, as you suggest,
but rather whether the U.S.'s knows better than Saddam what's good for
the millions of Iraqis that were being dominated in his totalitarian
regime. Do you think Saddam knew what was best for Iraqis and had
their best interests in mind?
My issue is with the attitude that what Saddam was doing to his people
was an issue. If it were an issue we'd be in Cuba now.
It is an issue, but Castro isn't a threat for perpetuating militant
islamists, nor is there any reason to believe he could make
connections with groups like al qa'eda. Cuba isn't vital
strategically. Therefore, while we isolate Cuba as long as there is a
dictatorship, there is no threat to us that warrants an invasion that
would cost lives.
Post by Awaken21
They may not be ready. You seem to see democracy as a stabilizing
influence however I think history has not really supported this
theory.
Modern history dramatically supports this, especially when it comes to
wars. If you want to argue that totalitarian and Stalinist states are
more stable, that would be interesting. Start with Saddam.
You do bring out what I think underlies all this: the hatred of
democracy and freedom. Anyway, what history do think supports the
idea that fascist or communist dictators bring more stability and
peace to the world? Go for it.
But we have loved and supported our friendly dictators,
whether we called them dictators or just "presidents".
Our buddies have been:

General Jorge Rafael Videla, President of ARGENTINA
Colonel Hugo Banzer, President of BOLIVIA
General Humberto Branco, President of BRAZIL
Sir Hassanal Bolkiah, the Sultan of BRUNEI
General Augusto Pinochet, President of CHILE
Fulgencio Batista, President of CUBA
Rafael Leonidas Trujillo, President of the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, General of EL SALVADOR
Alfredo Cristiani, President of EL SALVADOR
Halie Selassie, Emperor of ETHIOPIA
General Sitiveni Rabuka, Commander, Armed Forces of FIJI
Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of GERMANY
George Papadopoulos, Prime Minister of GREECE
General Efrain Rios Mont, President of GUATEMALA
Vinicio Cerezo, President of GUATEMALA
François & Jean Claude Duvalier, Presidents-for-Life of HAITI
Roberto Suazo Cordova, President of HONDURAS
General Suharto, President of INDONESIA
Mohammad Reza Pahlevi, Shah of IRAN
General Samuel Doe, President of LIBERIA
Hussan II, King of MOROCCO
Anastasio Somoza, Sr. And Jr., Presidents of NICARAGUA
Mohammed Zia Ul-Haq, President of PAKISTAN
General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Defense forces, PANAMA
Alfredo Stroessner, President-for-Life of PARAGUAY
Ferdinand Marcos, President of the PHILIPPINES
Antonio De Oliveira Salazar, Prime Minister of PORTUGAL
Ian Smith, Prime Minister of RHODESIA
P. W. Botha, President of SOUTH AFRICA
Park Chung Hee, President of SOUTH KOREA
Ngo Dinh Diem, President of SOUTH VIETNAM
General Francisco Franco, President of SPAIN
Chiang Kai-Shek, President of TAIWAN
Turgut Ozal, Prime Minister of TURKEY
Mobutu Sese Seko, President of ZAIRE
Shiva
2003-10-22 19:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
But we have loved and supported our friendly dictators,
whether we called them dictators or just "presidents".
General Jorge Rafael Videla, President of ARGENTINA
Colonel Hugo Banzer, President of BOLIVIA
General Humberto Branco, President of BRAZIL
Sir Hassanal Bolkiah, the Sultan of BRUNEI
General Augusto Pinochet, President of CHILE
Fulgencio Batista, President of CUBA
Rafael Leonidas Trujillo, President of the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, General of EL SALVADOR
Alfredo Cristiani, President of EL SALVADOR
Halie Selassie, Emperor of ETHIOPIA
General Sitiveni Rabuka, Commander, Armed Forces of FIJI
Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of GERMANY
George Papadopoulos, Prime Minister of GREECE
General Efrain Rios Mont, President of GUATEMALA
Vinicio Cerezo, President of GUATEMALA
François & Jean Claude Duvalier, Presidents-for-Life of HAITI
Roberto Suazo Cordova, President of HONDURAS
General Suharto, President of INDONESIA
Mohammad Reza Pahlevi, Shah of IRAN
Saddam Hussein, President of IRAQ
Post by Ch'an Fu
General Samuel Doe, President of LIBERIA
Hussan II, King of MOROCCO
Anastasio Somoza, Sr. And Jr., Presidents of NICARAGUA
Mohammed Zia Ul-Haq, President of PAKISTAN
General Parvez Musharraf, President of PAKISTAN
Post by Ch'an Fu
General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Defense forces, PANAMA
Alfredo Stroessner, President-for-Life of PARAGUAY
Ferdinand Marcos, President of the PHILIPPINES
Antonio De Oliveira Salazar, Prime Minister of PORTUGAL
Ian Smith, Prime Minister of RHODESIA
P. W. Botha, President of SOUTH AFRICA
Park Chung Hee, President of SOUTH KOREA
Ngo Dinh Diem, President of SOUTH VIETNAM
General Francisco Franco, President of SPAIN
Chiang Kai-Shek, President of TAIWAN
Turgut Ozal, Prime Minister of TURKEY
General Idi Amin, President of UGANDA
Post by Ch'an Fu
Mobutu Sese Seko, President of ZAIRE
Satan
2003-10-22 19:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiva
Post by Ch'an Fu
But we have loved and supported our friendly dictators,
whether we called them dictators or just "presidents".
General Jorge Rafael Videla, President of ARGENTINA
Colonel Hugo Banzer, President of BOLIVIA
General Humberto Branco, President of BRAZIL
Sir Hassanal Bolkiah, the Sultan of BRUNEI
General Augusto Pinochet, President of CHILE
Fulgencio Batista, President of CUBA
Rafael Leonidas Trujillo, President of the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, General of EL SALVADOR
Alfredo Cristiani, President of EL SALVADOR
Halie Selassie, Emperor of ETHIOPIA
General Sitiveni Rabuka, Commander, Armed Forces of FIJI
Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of GERMANY
George Papadopoulos, Prime Minister of GREECE
General Efrain Rios Mont, President of GUATEMALA
Vinicio Cerezo, President of GUATEMALA
François & Jean Claude Duvalier, Presidents-for-Life of HAITI
Roberto Suazo Cordova, President of HONDURAS
General Suharto, President of INDONESIA
Mohammad Reza Pahlevi, Shah of IRAN
Saddam Hussein, President of IRAQ
Post by Ch'an Fu
General Samuel Doe, President of LIBERIA
Hussan II, King of MOROCCO
Anastasio Somoza, Sr. And Jr., Presidents of NICARAGUA
Mohammed Zia Ul-Haq, President of PAKISTAN
General Parvez Musharraf, President of PAKISTAN
Post by Ch'an Fu
General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Defense forces, PANAMA
Alfredo Stroessner, President-for-Life of PARAGUAY
Ferdinand Marcos, President of the PHILIPPINES
Antonio De Oliveira Salazar, Prime Minister of PORTUGAL
Ian Smith, Prime Minister of RHODESIA
P. W. Botha, President of SOUTH AFRICA
Park Chung Hee, President of SOUTH KOREA
Ngo Dinh Diem, President of SOUTH VIETNAM
General Francisco Franco, President of SPAIN
Chiang Kai-Shek, President of TAIWAN
Turgut Ozal, Prime Minister of TURKEY
General Idi Amin, President of UGANDA
Post by Ch'an Fu
Mobutu Sese Seko, President of ZAIRE
A Good Dictator is a Friendly Dictator,
we always say...
Shiva
2003-10-22 20:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Satan
A Good Dictator is a Friendly Dictator,
we always say...
Satan, eh?

A friendly dictator ain't even a dictator. He is a "strong leader" (e.g.
Saddam Hussein the early 80's). An unfriendly one OTOH, is the devil
incarnate (e.g. Saddam Hussein in the 90's).
Ch'an Fu
2003-10-22 20:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shiva
Post by Satan
A Good Dictator is a Friendly Dictator,
we always say...
Satan, eh?
A friendly dictator ain't even a dictator. He is a "strong leader" (e.g.
Saddam Hussein the early 80's). An unfriendly one OTOH, is the devil
incarnate (e.g. Saddam Hussein in the 90's).
(well, you were "out-of-pocket" when all Hell broke loose...)

right, or "President" (we seem to like that one the most)
dictators, like piecrust, are made to be broken.
but electing a new one every octade or so does seem
to mix things up a bit. just so he's a "strong leader".
cupcake
2003-10-22 20:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by Shiva
Post by Satan
A Good Dictator is a Friendly Dictator,
we always say...
Satan, eh?
A friendly dictator ain't even a dictator. He is a "strong leader" (e.g.
Saddam Hussein the early 80's). An unfriendly one OTOH, is the devil
incarnate (e.g. Saddam Hussein in the 90's).
(well, you were "out-of-pocket" when all Hell broke loose...)
right, or "President" (we seem to like that one the most)
dictators, like piecrust, are made to be broken.
but electing a new one every octade or so does seem
to mix things up a bit. just so he's a "strong leader".
but, the behind-the-scenes power structure will always
remain steady and solid as a rock


bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! ha!
Satan
2003-10-22 19:57:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by jhayati
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent
We are moving for their benefit but without their consent.
That makes us look like bullies not matter what our intention.
No, a bully doesn't work for others' benefits. Rather, it makes them
look like irresponsible teenagers. Intervening when someone is
hurting themselves as well as others is often the best course of
action for everyone.
Well that's a school yard bully. However an adult bully is someone who
tries to impose their will on you despite your feelings, or concerns,
No, that's called a parent, who makes you study when you want to watch
TV. Of course, we all thought of our parents as bullies. I still do.
But thanks to them I've been getting educated and I'm nice to other
people.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
The question is not whether the U.S. is omniscient, as you suggest,
but rather whether the U.S.'s knows better than Saddam what's good for
the millions of Iraqis that were being dominated in his totalitarian
regime. Do you think Saddam knew what was best for Iraqis and had
their best interests in mind?
My issue is with the attitude that what Saddam was doing to his people
was an issue. If it were an issue we'd be in Cuba now.
It is an issue, but Castro isn't a threat for perpetuating militant
islamists, nor is there any reason to believe he could make
connections with groups like al qa'eda. Cuba isn't vital
strategically. Therefore, while we isolate Cuba as long as there is a
dictatorship, there is no threat to us that warrants an invasion that
would cost lives.
Post by Awaken21
They may not be ready. You seem to see democracy as a stabilizing
influence however I think history has not really supported this
theory.
Modern history dramatically supports this, especially when it comes to
wars. If you want to argue that totalitarian and Stalinist states are
more stable, that would be interesting. Start with Saddam.
You do bring out what I think underlies all this: the hatred of
democracy and freedom. Anyway, what history do think supports the
idea that fascist or communist dictators bring more stability and
peace to the world? Go for it.
But we have loved and supported our friendly dictators,
whether we called them dictators or just "presidents".
General Jorge Rafael Videla, President of ARGENTINA
Colonel Hugo Banzer, President of BOLIVIA
General Humberto Branco, President of BRAZIL
Sir Hassanal Bolkiah, the Sultan of BRUNEI
General Augusto Pinochet, President of CHILE
Fulgencio Batista, President of CUBA
Rafael Leonidas Trujillo, President of the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, General of EL SALVADOR
Alfredo Cristiani, President of EL SALVADOR
Halie Selassie, Emperor of ETHIOPIA
General Sitiveni Rabuka, Commander, Armed Forces of FIJI
Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of GERMANY
George Papadopoulos, Prime Minister of GREECE
General Efrain Rios Mont, President of GUATEMALA
Vinicio Cerezo, President of GUATEMALA
François & Jean Claude Duvalier, Presidents-for-Life of HAITI
Roberto Suazo Cordova, President of HONDURAS
General Suharto, President of INDONESIA
Mohammad Reza Pahlevi, Shah of IRAN
General Samuel Doe, President of LIBERIA
Hussan II, King of MOROCCO
Anastasio Somoza, Sr. And Jr., Presidents of NICARAGUA
Mohammed Zia Ul-Haq, President of PAKISTAN
General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Defense forces, PANAMA
Alfredo Stroessner, President-for-Life of PARAGUAY
Ferdinand Marcos, President of the PHILIPPINES
Antonio De Oliveira Salazar, Prime Minister of PORTUGAL
Ian Smith, Prime Minister of RHODESIA
P. W. Botha, President of SOUTH AFRICA
Park Chung Hee, President of SOUTH KOREA
Ngo Dinh Diem, President of SOUTH VIETNAM
General Francisco Franco, President of SPAIN
Chiang Kai-Shek, President of TAIWAN
Turgut Ozal, Prime Minister of TURKEY
Mobutu Sese Seko, President of ZAIRE
we're not doing a whole lot about these
places, either:

Tunisia
Libya
Egypt
Cameroon
Togo
Zimbabwe
Equatorial Guinea
Gambia
Mauritania
Eritrea
Guinea
Chad
Sudan
Central African Republic
Rwanda
Congo Kinshasa
Cuba
Haiti
Kazakhstan
Syria
Maldives
Turkmenistan
Kyrgyzstan
Uzbekistan
Tajikistan
Myanmar
Yemen
Belarus

know why?
cuz they're not "strategic"-
they just kill hundreds of
thousands of worthless
humans each year.
jhayati
2003-10-23 02:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Satan
we're not doing a whole lot about these
Tunisia
Libya
Egypt
...
know why?
cuz they're not "strategic"-
they just kill hundreds of
thousands of worthless
humans each year.
First, the claim is that we're a bully and that our stopping a
dictator is bad. Yet the argument is the opposite, that we should be
going around conquering the world and being the world's policemen. So
now the claim is that we aren't the world's policemen. Yet there is
no reason for us to be the world's unpaid policemen. If anything, the
UN should take the responsibility.

The rational, strategic middle path of taking out the worst dictator
in a strategic location and pressuring the rest in the area is much
better. Simply bombing 20 countries makes no sense. Like knee-jerk
pacifism, bombing every country with social injustice makes no sense,
and is only a function of emotionalism. Whereas taking Iraq and
pressuring the surrounding states while building Iraq into a
prosperous surviving nation makes the most sense.

In general, the "if you don't bury your head in the sand then why
don't you go the other extreme and conquer the world" just makes no
sense and is contradictory, yet this is a popular argument from
pacifists, probably because it is the result of extreme
black-and-white thinking. Luckily, Americans are well aware that use
of force is necessary, as well as that the minimal use of force is
always better than use of too much force, as we have learned from past
lessons, so we now know that the combination of minimal force and
diplomacy and economic pressure is the most effective combination.

The UN should function to stop such problems, but there was such
political rivalry coming from France that they were helpless to put
aside competition between allies and couldln't even get their act
together and fully support the removal of Saddam. If anything, the
problems of these other countries should be addressed by the U.N.,
were it not bogged down in a quagmire of political rivalries.

- jay
Awaken21
2003-10-23 15:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by jhayati
It's amazing that such folks as Ananda spin such fabrications, when it
is unbelievable how much the U.S. acts for the benefit of everyone,
given the power we have, and not submitting to will impotent
We are moving for their benefit but without their consent.
That makes us look like bullies not matter what our intention.
No, a bully doesn't work for others' benefits. Rather, it makes them
look like irresponsible teenagers. Intervening when someone is
hurting themselves as well as others is often the best course of
action for everyone.
Well that's a school yard bully. However an adult bully is someone who
tries to impose their will on you despite your feelings, or concerns,
No, that's called a parent, who makes you study when you want to watch
TV. Of course, we all thought of our parents as bullies. I still do.
But thanks to them I've been getting educated and I'm nice to other
people.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
The question is not whether the U.S. is omniscient, as you suggest,
but rather whether the U.S.'s knows better than Saddam what's good for
the millions of Iraqis that were being dominated in his totalitarian
regime. Do you think Saddam knew what was best for Iraqis and had
their best interests in mind?
My issue is with the attitude that what Saddam was doing to his people
was an issue. If it were an issue we'd be in Cuba now.
It is an issue, but Castro isn't a threat for perpetuating militant
islamists, nor is there any reason to believe he could make
connections with groups like al qa'eda. Cuba isn't vital
strategically. Therefore, while we isolate Cuba as long as there is a
dictatorship, there is no threat to us that warrants an invasion that
would cost lives.
Post by Awaken21
They may not be ready. You seem to see democracy as a stabilizing
influence however I think history has not really supported this
theory.
Modern history dramatically supports this, especially when it comes to
wars.
You're focusing on the democracies that worked and forgetting about
those that didn't, like germany for instance. The success of
democracies is recent and inconsistent. We are starting to get a
handle on how to set them up without failure but we have a way to go.
Post by jhayati
If you want to argue that totalitarian and Stalinist states are
more stable, that would be interesting. Start with Saddam.
No I don't want to argue the other radical end of this subject,
because I don't feel that way either.
Post by jhayati
You do bring out what I think underlies all this: the hatred of
democracy and freedom.
You brought hatred to this conversation, my opinion had nothing to do
with hatred.
Post by jhayati
Anyway, what history do think supports the
idea that fascist or communist dictators bring more stability and
peace to the world? Go for it.
Why would I do that? It's not my opinion it's another thing you've
added to conversation that has nothing to do with what I said. I don't
subscribe to either your radical argument, nor the opposing radical
argument that you seem to be trying to force on me.
jhayati
2003-10-24 02:48:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
You're focusing on the democracies that worked and forgetting about
those that didn't, like germany for instance.
Boy, a horribly unfair treaty and then a leader who turns the country
into a fascist socialist dictatorship isn't what I'd call a democracy.

Liberal democracies in fact have an excellent track record.
Post by Awaken21
Anyway, what history do think supports the idea that fascist or
communist dictators bring more stability and peace to the world?
Go for it.
Why would I do that?
Because we're comparing a democratic Iraq (or Iran or Saudi Arabia)
with the current government. So far, Turkey is doing well. They
still mistreat Kurds, among other things, but they are more stable and
if all the Arab and Muslim countries had governments like Turkey's, we
wouldn't have the corruption and violence or support of terrorist
groups.

- jay
Lifeform Bri
2003-10-24 03:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Because we're comparing a democratic Iraq (or Iran or Saudi Arabia)
with the current government. So far, Turkey is doing well. They
still mistreat Kurds, among other things, but they are more stable and
if all the Arab and Muslim countries had governments like Turkey's, we
wouldn't have the corruption and violence or support of terrorist
groups.
- jay
I wish American popular culture didn't promote so much violence, ie
wrestling sports entertainment, action movies, etc. Imagine how easy it
would be for another culture to show what a violent culture the west breeds.
Generalizing, I know.
naked ape
2003-10-26 04:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lifeform Bri
Post by jhayati
Because we're comparing a democratic Iraq (or Iran or Saudi Arabia)
with the current government. So far, Turkey is doing well. They
still mistreat Kurds, among other things, but they are more stable and
if all the Arab and Muslim countries had governments like Turkey's, we
wouldn't have the corruption and violence or support of terrorist
groups.
- jay
I wish American popular culture didn't promote so much violence, ie
wrestling sports entertainment, action movies, etc. Imagine how easy it
would be for another culture to show what a violent culture the west breeds.
Generalizing, I know.
I don't think our choices in entertainment mold us as much as they give us
what we lack. Truth is, most of us lead incredibly mundane lives. .. Ape;)
jhayati
2003-10-27 16:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lifeform Bri
Post by Lifeform Bri
Post by jhayati
Because we're comparing a democratic Iraq (or Iran or Saudi Arabia)
with the current government. So far, Turkey is doing well. They
still mistreat Kurds, among other things, but they are more stable and
if all the Arab and Muslim countries had governments like Turkey's, we
wouldn't have the corruption and violence or support of terrorist
groups.
- jay
I wish American popular culture didn't promote so much violence, ie
wrestling sports entertainment, action movies, etc. Imagine how easy it
would be for another culture to show what a violent culture the west
breeds.
Post by Lifeform Bri
Generalizing, I know.
I don't think our choices in entertainment mold us as much as they give us
what we lack. Truth is, most of us lead incredibly mundane lives. .. Ape;)
There is evidence both ways. Violence on television can be
entertaining for the non-violent (e.g., scary monster movies for those
with comfortable mundane lives at the top of the food chain), or
blowing off steam, as the cheering for the pseudo-violence of the fake
wrestling. There is also evidence that children imitate and are
conditioned by television violence.

One interesting study would be to look at how we have more violence
and less sex on television (the girl-girl Madonna/Britney kiss got
headlines and scandalous venomous attacks from every moral pundit).
For adults I think they give us what we lack as you suggest, whereas
for children, it's a different story, and entertainment is a very
strong conditioning factor. whereas in France there is much less
television and film violence and more sex, and lo and behold that
children in France are committing more rapes than in American.
Consider the following article from the NYTimes this weekend about the
poor outskirts of Paris. There may be a correlation here.

- jay



NYTimes VIGNEUX-SUR-SEINE JOURNAL

A Crime of the Young Stalks France's Urban Wastelands
By ELAINE SCIOLINO
Published: October 24, 2003

IGNEUX-SUR-SEINE, France — The boys were patient, standing in line and
waiting their turn to rape.

Their two victims, girls of 13, were patient, too, never crying out,
at least that is what the neighbors said, and enduring the violence
and abuse repeatedly over five months.

That was three years ago. Late in September, 10 young men, now aged
from 18 to 21, were convicted of rape in a closed courtroom in nearby
Evry and sentenced to prison terms ranging from three to five years.
Seven others will go on trial in November.

The fact that they are being brought to justice at all is highly
unusual. The phenomenon of gang rape in France is called something
more banal: taking turns.

It occurs — how often is unknown — in the concrete wastelands built as
cheap housing for immigrants, mostly from France's former colonies, in
the 1950's and 1960's on the outskirts of big cities. Here, according
to sociologists and prosecutors, teenage boys, many of them loosely
organized into gangs, prey on neighborhood girls.

Many of the boys are raised in closed, traditional families and are
hopelessly confused or ignorant about sex; others are simply street
toughs. In this world, women enjoy little respect; often girls who
appear weak, or wear tight-fitting clothing, or go out unaccompanied
by their fathers or brothers, are considered fair game.

To avoid trouble, many girls have taken to wearing loose-fitting
jogging clothes, and hidden themselves behind domineering fathers or
brothers; others have organized themselves into their own gangs. Many
of the Muslim girls have donned head scarves — more for protection
than out of religious conviction.

In the basement of No. 4, place Albert Einstein, in this working-class
suburb where the rapes took place, a scrawl across a white wall
explains why so few cases are prosecuted. "The law of silence is our
sixth sense," it reads.

"I've heard too many of these stories, and it's become unbearable,"
said Samira Bellil, 30, a gang-rape victim, whose book, "In Gang-Rape
Hell," was a best seller in France last year. "The word of the boys is
often believed. So the trauma is not just the violence but the torment
that comes if a girl comes forward and breaks the silence. We have to
stop taking sides with the wolves."

Ms. Bellil was gang-raped at age 14. She had fallen in love, and
agreed to have sex with her boyfriend. Three of his friends were
waiting outside. They kicked and beat her and gang-raped her
throughout the night. She waited before reporting the rapes, and did
so only after three of her friends told her that they too had been
raped by one of her attackers.

The appearance of Ms. Bellil's book last year coincided with the death
of a 17-year-old girl named Sohane, who was burned alive by an angry
boyfriend in the Paris suburb of Vitry-sur-Seine. A book about that
murder is still on the best-seller list.

In the recent court case, the assault on the two girls was either oral
or anal; vaginal sex would have stolen the girls' virginity, which
apparently was not the goal of the attackers.

"In many cases, the violence of a band of young men against a girl is
considered a rite of sexual initiation to prove one's manhood," said
Hugues Lagrange, a sociologist at the Center for Scientific Research
in Paris who specializes in adolescent sexuality. "In the boys' minds,
if a girl's virginity is respected, then nothing bad has happened."

The girls' story seeped out months after the events, according to
Laurent Le Mehaute, the lawyer for one of the girls. After rumors
circulated at their high school, the director got police involved. At
first, the girls denied the story, but eventually identified 18 boys
as their rapists.

None of the boys had a previous criminal record. All but one confessed
to having sex with the girls, even acknowledging that it was not
consensual. The one who claimed his innocence was acquitted.

At the vast housing project where the girls lived and where the rapes
occurred, the grounds are clean, even landscaped. The population is
multiracial and multiethnic, blending both French-born citizens and
immigrants from places like North and sub-Saharan Africa, Turkey and
the Caribbean. Nearby are a butcher selling halal meat, an oriental
pastry shop and coffeehouse, a laundromat, a health club and a
supermarket — as well as drug dealers openly selling hashish.

Prejudice against the girls lingers. "What were the girls doing in the
afternoons down in the basements?" asked a woman who lives on the
first floor of the building. "Why did their parents let them go there?
They know what happens if they follow the boys. They know what happens
if they go to the basement."

The neighborhood butcher, from Algeria, talked about the suburb as a
world apart. "If a girl goes out, she's going to get into trouble,
especially with Arabs and blacks, because they are not used to seeing
girls outside," he said. "The boys have needs. Where I come from, it's
not normal that a girl goes out at night. If I tell my sister not to
go out, she obeys me. This world is not like France."

Both the neighbor and the butcher spoke on condition that their names
not be used.

There are no reliable statistics, but Mr. Lagrange estimates that
there are more than four times as many gang rapes in France today as
there were two decades ago; at least part of the increase can be
attributed to more young women coming forward.

Transparency comes at an exceedingly high price. After one of the
girls spoke out, said Mr. Le Mehaute, the lawyer, "she couldn't go out
anymore."

"People spat on her. There was tremendous psychological damage. Both
girls felt humiliated, dirty."

The girl's 39-year-old father became so depressed after the truth was
disclosed that last summer he hanged himself. The girl had tried but
failed to kill herself the year before by slashing her arms. Both
girls were harassed so mercilessly that have since moved away from the
project. One lives with relatives, the other in state-run housing.
Lifeform Bri
2003-10-29 04:22:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lifeform Bri
Post by Lifeform Bri
I wish American popular culture didn't promote so much violence, ie
wrestling sports entertainment, action movies, etc. Imagine how easy it
would be for another culture to show what a violent culture the west
breeds.
Post by Lifeform Bri
Generalizing, I know.
I don't think our choices in entertainment mold us as much as they give us
what we lack. Truth is, most of us lead incredibly mundane lives. ..
Ape;)
'Mundane' is one of those tricks our minds play on us. We seem to have a
need for wonder and awe - a gravitation towards extremes. Good stuff for
creating imaginary super-tough action hereos or even super-spiritual
lack-of-action heroes.

Some of us have challenged ourselves to make everything as mundane or
mystical as the wind pushing litter across the sidewalk. Pretty clear to
those people what extremes will get a person.
Jazz
2003-10-26 04:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lifeform Bri
Post by jhayati
Because we're comparing a democratic Iraq (or Iran or Saudi Arabia)
with the current government. So far, Turkey is doing well. They
still mistreat Kurds, among other things, but they are more stable and
if all the Arab and Muslim countries had governments like Turkey's, we
wouldn't have the corruption and violence or support of terrorist
groups.
- jay
I wish American popular culture didn't promote so much violence, ie
wrestling sports entertainment, action movies, etc. Imagine how easy it
would be for another culture to show what a violent culture the west breeds.
Generalizing, I know.
LOL.
It seems to be global.
Ever read the history of the East?
Or mix the Turks with the Greeks!
cupcake
2003-10-26 07:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Rockets hit U.S. Baghdad hotel


BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Anti-American guerrillas have blasted the Baghdad
hotel where U.S. Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz is staying
with a barrage of rockets, but the No. 2 Pentagon official has
survived unharmed, U.S. officials say.

A defiant Wolfowitz vowed that the United States would not be cowed
into abandoning Iraq after the brazen attack that he said may have
killed one American.
Awaken21
2003-10-28 17:56:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
You're focusing on the democracies that worked and forgetting about
those that didn't, like germany for instance.
Boy, a horribly unfair treaty and then a leader who turns the country
into a fascist socialist dictatorship isn't what I'd call a democracy.
Liberal democracies in fact have an excellent track record.
No. As you point there are conditions within the new democracy that
must exist for it to work. I heard a very interesting speaker on just
this subject a few weeks ago who was on the U.S./U.N. teams involved
in nation building and he talked about democracies and culture the
recent U.S. successes and failures. He mentioned eastern europe, the
near east and africa as the examples. You'd have to research further
to know which were the exact instances and countries involved, I just
don't remember the names.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Anyway, what history do think supports the idea that fascist or
communist dictators bring more stability and peace to the world?
Go for it.
Why would I do that?
Because we're comparing a democratic Iraq (or Iran or Saudi Arabia)
with the current government. So far, Turkey is doing well. They
still mistreat Kurds, among other things, but they are more stable and
if all the Arab and Muslim countries had governments like Turkey's, we
wouldn't have the corruption and violence or support of terrorist
groups.
- jay
Your saying that I should "support the idea history supports the idea
that fascist or communist dictators bring more stability and peace to
the world" becuase "we're comparing a democratic Iraq (or Iran or
Saudi Arabia)
with the current government.".

I wasn't comparing the governments, you were, apprently to support
that democracy is the answer to our problems with concerning regional
stability. My opinion is that democracy is not a stabilizing influence
until other issues of stability have been addressed. This opinoin of
course does not mean I believe the other ridiculous assumption that
therefore dictatorships are better so I'll decline to make argument
also.
jhayati
2003-10-30 05:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
As you point there are conditions within the new democracy that
must exist for it to work. I heard a very interesting speaker on just
this subject a few weeks ago who was on the U.S./U.N. teams involved
in nation building and he talked about democracies and culture the
recent U.S. successes and failures. He mentioned eastern europe, the
near east and africa as the examples. You'd have to research further
to know which were the exact instances and countries involved, I just
don't remember the names.
Actually, I was thinking of a wonderful article about the subject that
I read last month. This is a must read, written by Amartya Sen, who
received the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1998. (Unfortunately, it is
scholarly and well written and not the usual superficial tabloid or
blog sensationalism that clownish and vulgar posters alike fancy so
much, so I doubt anyone will read it except for perhaps Dr. Krugar, so
I'll give a pitch for it first.) For what it's worth, this is a
brilliant article in one of the most reputable and scholarly weekly
publications, and it has a bonus of tying in a lot of interesting
Buddhist history with this thread. Since it isn't a free web site and
I'm a subscriber, I'll paste in the article, even though it is
lenghty.

The most interesting theme, I thought, is how open public discussion
is a key to success in democracy: "To ignore the centrality of public
reasoning in the idea of democracy not only distorts and diminishes
the history of democratic ideas, it also detracts attention from the
interactive processes through which a democracy functions and on which
its success depends... free and uncensored deliberation is important
for people to be able to determine what they must demand, what they
should criticize, and how they ought to vote."

Also interesting is that the Diamond Sutra became the world's first
printed book, and that "the development of printing, largely driven by
a commitment to propagate Buddhist perspectives (including compassion
and benevolence), transformed the possibilities of public
communication in general. Initially sought as a medium for spreading
the Buddhist message, the innovation of printing was a momentous
development in public communication that greatly expanded the
opportunity of social deliberation. The commitment of Buddhist
scholars to expand communication in secular as well as religious
subjects has considerable relevance for the global roots of
democracy."

- j



Democracy and Its Global Roots
by Amartya Sen

Post date: 09.25.03
http://www.tnr.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20031006&s=sen100603


I.

There is no mystery in the fact that the immediate prospects of
democracy in Iraq, to be ushered in by the American-led alliance, are
being viewed with increasing skepticism. The evident ambiguities in
the goals of the occupation and the lack of clarity about the process
of democratization make these doubts inescapable. But it would be a
serious mistake to translate these uncertainties about the immediate
prospects of a democratic Iraq into a larger case for skepticism about
the general possibility of--and indeed the need for--having democracy
in Iraq, or in any other country that is deprived of it. Nor is there
a general ground here for uneasiness about providing global support
for the struggle for democracy around the world, which is the most
profound challenge of our times. Democracy movements across the globe
(in South Africa and Argentina and Indonesia yesterday, in Burma and
Zimbabwe and elsewhere today) reflect people's determination to fight
for political participation and an effective voice. Apprehensions
about current events in Iraq have to be seen in their specific
context; there is a big world beyond.

It is important to consider, in the broader arena, two general
objections to the advocacy of democracy that have recently gained much
ground in international debates and which tend to color discussions of
foreign affairs, particularly in America and Europe. There are, first,
doubts about what democracy can achieve in poorer countries. Is
democracy not a barrier that obstructs the process of development and
deflects attention from the priorities of economic and social change,
such as providing adequate food, raising income per head, and carrying
out institutional reform? It is also argued that democratic governance
can be deeply illiberal and can inflict suffering on those who do not
belong to the ruling majority in a democracy. Are vulnerable groups
not better served by the protection that authoritarian governance can
provide?

The second line of attack concentrates on historical and cultural
doubts about advocating democracy for people who do not, allegedly,
"know" it. The endorsement of democracy as a general rule for all
people, whether by national or international bodies or by human rights
activists, is frequently castigated on the ground that it involves an
attempted imposition of Western values and Western practices on
non-Western societies. The argument goes much beyond acknowledging
that democracy is a predominantly Western practice in the contemporary
world, as it certainly is. It takes the form of presuming that
democracy is an idea of which the roots can be found exclusively in
some distinctively Western thought that has flourished uniquely in
Europe--and nowhere else--for a very long time.

These are legitimate and cogent questions, and they are,
understandably, being asked with some persistence. But are these
misgivings really well-founded? In arguing that they are not, it is
important to note that these lines of criticism are not altogether
unlinked. Indeed, the flaws in both lie primarily in the attempt to
see democracy in an unduly narrow and restricted way--in particular,
exclusively in terms of public balloting and not much more broadly, in
terms of what John Rawls called "the exercise of public reason." This
more capacious concept includes the opportunity for citizens to
participate in political discussions and so to be in a position to
influence public choice. In understanding where the two lines of
attack on democratization respectively go wrong, it is crucial to
appreciate that democracy has demands that transcend the ballot box.

Indeed, voting is only one way--though certainly a very important
way--of making public discussions effective, when the opportunity to
vote is combined with the opportunity to speak, and to listen, without
fear. The force and the reach of elections depend critically on the
opportunity for open public discussion. Balloting alone can be
woefully inadequate, as is abundantly illustrated by the astounding
electoral victories of ruling tyrannies in authoritarian regimes, from
Stalin's Soviet Union to Saddam Hussein's Iraq. The problem in these
cases lies not just in the pressure that is brought to bear on voters
in the act of balloting itself, but in the way public discussion of
failures and transgressions is thwarted by censorship, suppression of
political opposition, and violations of basic civil rights and
political freedoms.

The need to take a broader view of democracy--going well beyond the
freedom of elections and ballots--has been extensively discussed not
only in contemporary political philosophy, but also in the new
disciplines of social choice theory and public choice theory,
influenced by economic reasoning as well as by political ideas. The
process of decision-making through discussion can enhance information
about a society and about individual priorities, and those priorities
may respond to public deliberation. As James Buchanan, the leading
public choice theorist, argues, "The definition of democracy as
'government by discussion' implies that individual values can and do
change in the process of decision-making."

All this raises deep questions about the dominant focus on balloting
and elections in the literature on world affairs, and about the
adequacy of the view, well articulated by Samuel P. Huntington in The
Third Wave, that "elections, open, free and fair, are the essence of
democracy, the inescapable sine qua non." In the broader perspective
of public reasoning, democracy has to give a central place to
guaranteeing free public discussion and deliberative interactions in
political thought and practice--not just through elections nor just
for elections. What is required, as Rawls observed, is the
safeguarding of "diversity of doctrines--the fact of pluralism," which
is central to "the public culture of modern democracies," and which
must be secured in a democracy by "basic rights and liberties."

The broader view of democracy in terms of public reasoning also allows
us to understand that the roots of democracy go much beyond the
narrowly confined chronicles of some designated practices that are now
seen as specifically "democratic institutions." This basic recognition
was clear enough to Tocqueville. In 1835, in Democracy in America, he
noted that the "great democratic revolution" then taking place could
be seen, from one point of view, as "a new thing," but it could also
be seen, from a broader perspective, as part of "the most continuous,
ancient, and permanent tendency known to history." Although he
confined his historical examples to Europe's past (pointing to the
powerful contribution toward democratization made by the admission of
common people to the ranks of clergy in "the state of France seven
hundred years ago"), Tocqueville's general argument has immensely
broader relevance.

The championing of pluralism, diversity, and basic liberties can be
found in the history of many societies. The long traditions of
encouraging and protecting public debates on political, social, and
cultural matters in, say, India, China, Japan, Korea, Iran, Turkey,
the Arab world, and many parts of Africa, demand much fuller
recognition in the history of democratic ideas. This global heritage
is ground enough to question the frequently reiterated view that
democracy is just a Western idea, and that democracy is therefore just
a form of Westernization. The recognition of this history has direct
relevance in contemporary politics in pointing to the global legacy of
protecting and promoting social deliberation and pluralist
interactions, which cannot be any less important today than they were
in the past when they were championed.

In his autobiography, Long Walk to Freedom, Nelson Mandela describes
how impressed he was, as a young boy, by the democratic nature of the
proceedings of the local meetings that were held in the regent's house
in Mqhekezweni:

"Everyone who wanted to speak did so. It was democracy in its purest
form. There may have been a hierarchy of importance among the
speakers, but everyone was heard, chief and subject, warrior and
medicine man, shopkeeper and farmer, landowner and laborer....The
foundation of self-government was that all men were free to voice
their opinions and equal in their value as citizens."

Meyer Fortes and Edward E. Evans-Pritchard, the great anthropologists
of Africa, argued in their classic book African Political Systems,
published more than sixty years ago, that "the structure of an African
state implies that kings and chiefs rule by consent." There might have
been some over-generalization in this, as critics argued later; but
there can be little doubt about the traditional role and the
continuing relevance of accountability and participation in African
political heritage. To overlook all this, and to regard the fight for
democracy in Africa only as an attempt to import from abroad the
"Western idea" of democracy, would be a profound misunderstanding.
Mandela's "long walk to freedom" began distinctly at home.

Nowhere in the contemporary world is the need for more democratic
engagement stronger than in Africa. The continent has suffered greatly
from the domination of authoritarianism and military rule in the late
twentieth century, following the formal closure of the British,
French, Portuguese, and Belgian empires. Africa also had the
misfortune of being caught right in the middle of the Cold War, in
which each of the superpowers cultivated military rulers friendly to
itself and hostile to the enemy. No military usurper of civilian
authority ever lacked a superpower friend, linked with it in a
military alliance. A continent that seemed in the 1950s to be poised
to develop democratic politics in newly independent countries was soon
being run by an assortment of strongmen who were linked to one side or
the other in the militancy of the Cold War. They competed in despotism
with apartheid-based South Africa.

That picture is slowly changing now, with post-apartheid South Africa
playing a leading part. But, as Anthony Appiah has argued,
"ideological decolonization is bound to fail if it neglects either
endogenous 'tradition' or exogenous 'Western' ideas." Even as specific
democratic institutions developed in the West are welcomed and put
into practice, the task requires an adequate understanding of the deep
roots of democratic thought in Africa itself. Similar issues arise,
with varying intensity, in other parts of the non-Western world as
they struggle to introduce or consolidate democratic governance.


II.

The idea that democracy is an essentially Western notion is sometimes
linked to the practice of voting and elections in ancient Greece,
specifically in Athens from the fifth century B.C.E. In the evolution
of democratic ideas and practices it is certainly important to note
the remarkable role of Athenian direct democracy, starting from
Cleisthenes's pioneering move toward public balloting around 506
B.C.E. The term "democracy" derives from the Greek words for "people"
(demos) and "authority" (kratia). Although many people in
Athens--women and slaves in particular--were not citizens and did not
have the right to vote, the vast importance of the Athenian practice
of the sharing of political authority deserves unequivocal
acknowledgment.

But to what extent does this make democracy a basically Western
concept? There are two major difficulties in taking this view. The
first problem concerns the importance of public reasoning, which takes
us beyond the narrow perspective of public balloting. Athens itself
was extremely distinguished in encouraging public discussion, as was
ancient Greece in general. But the Greeks were not unique in this
respect, even among ancient civilizations, and there is an extensive
history of the cultivation of tolerance, pluralism, and public
deliberation in other societies as well.

The second difficulty concerns the partitioning of the world into
discrete civilizations with geographical correlates, in which ancient
Greece is seen as part and parcel of an identifiable "Western"
tradition. Not only is this a difficult thing to do given the diverse
history of different parts of Europe, but it is also hard to miss an
implicit element of racist thinking in such wholesale reduction of
Western civilization to Greek antiquity. In this perspective, no great
difficulty is perceived in seeing the descendants of, say, Goths and
Visigoths and other Europeans as the inheritors of the Greek tradition
("they are all Europeans"), while there is great reluctance to take
note of the Greek intellectual links with ancient Egyptians, Iranians,
and Indians, despite the greater interest that the ancient Greeks
themselves showed--as recorded in contemporary accounts--in talking to
them (rather than in chatting with the ancient Goths).

Such discussions often concerned issues that are directly or
indirectly relevant to democratic ideas. When Alexander asked a group
of Jain philosophers in India why they were paying so little attention
to the great conqueror, he got the following reply, which directly
questioned the legitimacy of inequality: "King Alexander, every man
can possess only so much of the earth's surface as this we are
standing on. You are but human like the rest of us, save that you are
always busy and up to no good, traveling so many miles from your home,
a nuisance to yourself and to others! ... You will soon be dead, and
then you will own just as much of the earth as will suffice to bury
you." Arrian reports that Alexander responded to this egalitarian
reproach with the same kind of admiration as he had shown in his
encounter with Diogenes, even though his actual conduct remained
unchanged ("the exact opposite of what he then professed to admire").
Classifying the world of ideas in terms of shared racial
characteristics of proximate populations is hardly a wonderful basis
for categorizing the history of thought.

Nor does it take into account how intellectual influences travel or
how parallel developments take place in a world linked by ideas rather
than by race. There is nothing to indicate that the Greek experience
in democratic governance had much immediate impact in the countries to
the west of Greece and Rome--in, say, France or Germany or Britain. By
contrast, some of the contemporary cities in Asia--in Iran, Bactria,
and India--incorporated elements of democracy in municipal governance,
largely under Greek influence. For several centuries after the time of
Alexander, for example, the city of Susa in southwest Iran had an
elected council, a popular assembly, and magistrates who were proposed
by the council and elected by the assembly. There is also considerable
evidence of elements of democratic governance at the local level in
India and Bactria over that period.

It must be noted, of course, that such overtures were almost entirely
confined to local governance, but it would nevertheless be a mistake
to dismiss these early experiences of participatory governance as
insignificant for the global history of democracy. The seriousness of
this neglect has to be assessed in light of the particular importance
of local politics in the history of democracy, including the
city-republics that would emerge more than a millennium later in
Italy, from the eleventh century onward. As Benjamin I. Schwartz
pointed out in his great book The World of Thought in Ancient China,
"Even in the history of the West, with its memories of Athenian
'democracy,' the notion that democracy cannot be implemented in large
territorial states requiring highly centralized power remained
accepted wisdom as late as Montesquieu and Rousseau."

Indeed, these histories often play inspirational roles and prevent a
sense of distance from democratic ideas. When India became independent
in 1947, the political discussions that led to a fully democratic
constitution, making India the largest democracy in the twentieth
century, not only included references to Western experiences in
democracy but also recalled India's own traditions. Jawaharlal Nehru
put particular emphasis on the tolerance of heterodoxy and pluralism
in the political rules of Indian emperors such as Ashoka and Akbar.
The encouragement of public discussion by those tolerant political
orders was recollected and evocatively linked to India's modern
multi-party constitution.

There was also, as it happens, considerable discussion in the early
years of Indian independence of whether the organization of "the
ancient polity of India" could serve as the model for India's
constitution in the twentieth century, though that idea was actually
even less plausible than would have been any attempt to construct the
constitution of the United States in 1776 in line with Athenian
practices of the fifth century B.C.E. The chair of the committee that
drafted the Indian constitution, B.R. Ambedkar, went in some detail
into the history of local democratic governance in India to assess
whether it could fruitfully serve as a model for modern Indian
democracy. Ambedkar's conclusion was that it should definitely not be
given that role, particularly because localism generated
"narrow-mindedness and communalism" (speaking personally, Ambedkar
even asserted that "these village republics have been the ruination of
India"). Yet even as he firmly rejected the possibility that
democratic institutions from India's past could serve as appropriate
contemporary models, Ambedkar did not fail to note the general
relevance of the history of Indian public reasoning, and he
particularly emphasized the expression of heterodox views and the
historical criticism of the prevalence of inequality in India. There
is a direct parallel here with Nelson Mandela's powerful invocation of
Africa's own heritage of public reasoning in arguing for pluralist
democracies in contemporary Africa.


III.

The established literature on the history of democracy is full of
well-known contrasts between Plato and Aristotle, Marsilius of Padua
and Machiavelli, Hobbes and Locke, and so on. This is as it should be;
but the large intellectual heritages of China, Japan, East and
Southeast Asia, the Indian subcontinent, Iran, the Middle East, and
Africa have been almost entirely neglected in analyzing the reach of
the ideal of public reasoning. This has not favored an adequately
inclusive understanding of the nature and the power of democratic
ideas as they are linked to constructive public deliberation.

The ideal of public reasoning is closely linked with two particular
social practices that deserve specific attention: the tolerance of
different points of view (along with the acceptability of agreeing to
disagree) and the encouragement of public discussion (along with
endorsing the value of learning from others). Both tolerance and
openness of public discussion are often seen as specific--and perhaps
unique--features of Western tradition. How correct is this notion?
Certainly, tolerance has by and large been a significant feature of
modern Western politics (leaving out extreme aberrations like Nazi
Germany and the intolerant administration of British or French or
Portuguese empires in Asia and Africa). Still, there is hardly a great
historical divide here of the kind that could separate out Western
toleration from non-Western despotism. When the Jewish philosopher
Maimonides was forced to emigrate from an intolerant Europe in the
twelfth century, for example, he found a tolerant refuge in the Arab
world and was given an honored and influential position in the court
of Emperor Saladin in Cairo--the same Saladin who fought hard for
Islam in the Crusades.

Maimonides's experience was not exceptional. Even though the
contemporary world is full of examples of conflicts between Muslims
and Jews, Muslim rulers in the Arab world and in medieval Spain had a
long history of integrating Jews as secure members of the social
community whose liberties--and sometimes leadership roles--were
respected. As María Rosa Menocal notes in her recent book The Ornament
of the World, the fact that Cordoba in Muslim-ruled Spain in the tenth
century was "as serious a contender as Baghdad, perhaps more so, for
the title of most civilized place on earth" was due to the joint
influence of Caliph Abd al-Rahman III and his Jewish vizier Hasdai ibn
Shaprut. Indeed, there is considerable evidence, as Menocal argues,
that the position of Jews after the Muslim conquest "was in every
respect an improvement, as they went from persecuted to protected
minority."

Similarly, when in the 1590s the great Mughal emperor Akbar, with his
belief in pluralism and in the constructive role of public
discussions, was making his pronouncements in India on the need for
tolerance and was busy arranging dialogues between people of different
faiths (including Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Parsees, Jains, Jews,
and even atheists), the inquisitions were still taking place in Europe
with considerable vehemence. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake
for heresy in the Campo dei Fiori in Rome in 1600 even as Akbar was
speaking on tolerance in Agra.

We must not fall into the trap of arguing that there was in general
more tolerance in non-Western societies than in the West. For no such
generalization can be made. There were great examples of tolerance as
well as of intolerance on both sides of this allegedly profound
division of the world. What needs to be corrected is the
underresearched assertion of Western exceptionalism in the matter of
tolerance; but there is no need to replace it with an equally
arbitrary generalization of the opposite sort.

A similar point can be made about the tradition of public discussion.
Again, the Greek and Roman heritage on this is particularly important
for the history of public reasoning, but it was not unique in this
respect in the ancient world. The importance attached to public
deliberation by Buddhist intellectuals not only led to extensive
communications on religious and secular subjects in India and in East
and Southeast Asia, but also produced some of the earliest open
general meetings aimed specifically at settling disputes regarding
different points of view. These Buddhist "councils," the first of
which was held shortly after Gautama Buddha's death, were primarily
concerned with resolving differences in religious principles and
practices, but they dealt also with demands of social and civic
duties, and they helped to establish the practice of open discussion
on contentious issues.

The largest of these councils--the third--occurred, under the
patronage of Emperor Ashoka in the third century B.C.E., in
Pataliputra, then the capital of India, now called Patna (perhaps best
known today as a source of a fine long-grain rice). Public discussion,
without violence or even animosity, was particularly important for
Ashoka's general belief in social deliberation, as is well reflected
in the inscriptions that he placed on specially mounted stone pillars
across India--and some outside it. The edict at Erragudi put the issue
forcefully:

"... the growth of essentials of Dharma [proper conduct] is possible
in many ways. But its root lies in restraint in regard to speech, so
that there should be no extolment of one's own sect or disparagement
of other sects on inappropriate occasions, and it should be moderate
even on appropriate occasions. On the contrary, other sects should be
duly honoured in every way on all occasions.... If a person acts
otherwise, he not only injures his own sect but also harms other
sects. Truly, if a person extols his own sect and disparages other
sects with a view to glorifying his own sect owing merely to his
attachment to it, he injures his own sect very severely by acting in
that way."

In the subject of public discussion and communication, it is also
important to note that nearly every attempt at early printing in
China, Korea, and Japan was undertaken by Buddhist technologists, with
an interest in expanding communication. The first printed book in the
world was a Chinese translation of an Indian Sanskrit treatise, later
known as the "Diamond Sutra," done by a half-Indian and half-Turkish
scholar called Kumarajeeva in the fifth century, which was printed in
China four and half centuries later, in 868 C.E. The development of
printing, largely driven by a commitment to propagate Buddhist
perspectives (including compassion and benevolence), transformed the
possibilities of public communication in general. Initially sought as
a medium for spreading the Buddhist message, the innovation of
printing was a momentous development in public communication that
greatly expanded the opportunity of social deliberation.

The commitment of Buddhist scholars to expand communication in secular
as well as religious subjects has considerable relevance for the
global roots of democracy. Sometimes the communication took the form
of a rebellious disagreement. Indeed, in the seventh century Fu-yi, a
Confucian leader of an anti-Buddhist campaign, submitted the following
complaint about Buddhists to the Tang emperor (almost paralleling the
current official ire about the "indiscipline" of the Falun Gong):
"Buddhism infiltrated into China from Central Asia, under a strange
and barbarous form, and as such, it was then less dangerous. But since
the Han period the Indian texts began to be translated into Chinese.
Their publicity began to adversely affect the faith of the Princes and
filial piety began to degenerate. The people began to shave their
heads and refused to bow their heads to the Princes and their
ancestors." In other cases, the dialectics took the form of learning
from each other. In fact, in the extensive scientific, mathematical,
and literary exchanges between China and India during the first
millennium C.E., Buddhist scholars played a major part.

In Japan in the early seventh century, the Buddhist Prince Shotoku,
who was regent to his mother Empress Suiko, not only sent missions to
China to bring back knowledge of art, architecture, astronomy,
literature, and religion (including Taoist and Confucian texts in
addition to Buddhist ones), but also introduced a relatively liberal
constitution or kempo, known as "the constitution of seventeen
articles," in 604 C.E. It insisted, much in the spirit of the Magna
Carta (signed in England six centuries later), that "decisions on
important matters should not be made by one person alone. They should
be discussed with many." It also advised: "Nor let us be resentful
when others differ from us. For all men have hearts, and each heart
has its own leanings. Their right is our wrong, and our right is their
wrong." Not surprisingly, many commentators have seen in this
seventh-century constitution what Nakamura Hajime has called Japan's
"first step of gradual development toward democracy."

There are, in fact, many manifestations of a firm commitment to public
communication and associative reasoning that can be found in different
places and times across the world. To take another illustration, which
is of particular importance to science and culture, the great success
of Arab civilization in the millennium following the emergence of
Islam provides a remarkable example of indigenous creativity combined
with openness to intellectual influences from elsewhere--often from
people with very different religious beliefs and political systems.
The Greek classics had a profound influence on Arab thinking, and,
over a more specialized area, so did Indian mathematics. Even though
no formal system of democratic governance was involved in these
achievements, the excellence of what was achieved--the remarkable
flourishing of Arab philosophy, literature, mathematics, and
science--is a tribute not only to indigenous creativity but also to
the glory of open public reasoning, which influences knowledge and
technology as well as politics.

The idea behind such openness was well articulated by Imam Ali bin abi
Taleb in the early seventh century, in his pronouncement that "no
wealth can profit you more than the mind" and "no isolation can be
more desolate than conceit." These and other such proclamations are
quoted for their relevance to the contemporary world by the excellent
"Arab Human Development Report 2002" of the United Nations. The thesis
of European exceptionalism, by contrast, invites the Arabs, like the
rest of the non-Western world, to forget their own heritage of public
reasoning.


IV.

To ignore the centrality of public reasoning in the idea of democracy
not only distorts and diminishes the history of democratic ideas, it
also detracts attention from the interactive processes through which a
democracy functions and on which its success depends. The neglect of
the global roots of public reasoning, which is a big loss in itself,
goes with the undermining of an adequate understanding of the place
and the role of democracy in the contemporary world. Even with the
expansion of adult franchise and fair elections, free and uncensored
deliberation is important for people to be able to determine what they
must demand, what they should criticize, and how they ought to vote.

Consider the much-discussed proposition that famines do not occur in
democracies, but only in imperial colonies (as used to happen in
British India), or in military dictatorships (as in Ethiopia, Sudan,
or Somalia, in recent decades), or in one-party states (as in the
Soviet Union in the 1930s, or China from 1958 to 1961, or Cambodia in
the 1970s, or North Korea in the immediate past). It is hard for a
government to withstand public criticism when a famine occurs. This is
due not merely to the fear of losing elections, but also to the
prospective consequences of public censure when newspapers and other
media are independent and uncensored and opposition parties are
allowed to pester those in office. The proportion of people affected
by famines is always rather small (hardly ever more than 10 percent of
the total population), so for a famine to become a political nightmare
for the government it is necessary to generate public sympathy through
the sharing of information and open public discussion.

Even though India was experiencing famines until its independence in
1947--the last one, the Bengal famine of 1943, killed between two and
three million people--these catastrophes stopped abruptly when a
multi-party democracy was established. China, by contrast, had the
largest famine in recorded history between 1958 and 1961, in which it
is estimated that between twenty-three and thirty million people died,
following the debacle of collectivization in the so-called "Great Leap
Forward." Still, the working of democracy, which is almost
effortlessly effective in preventing conspicuous disasters such as
famines, is often far less successful in politicizing the nastiness of
regular but non-extreme undernourishment and ill health. India has had
no problem in avoiding famines with timely intervention, but it has
been much harder to generate adequate public interest in less
immediate and less dramatic deprivations, such as the quiet presence
of endemic but non-extreme hunger across the country and the low
standard of basic health care.

While democracy is not without success in India, its achievements are
still far short of what public reasoning can do in a democratic
society if it addresses less conspicuous deprivations such as endemic
hunger. A similar criticism can also be made about the protection of
minority rights, which majority rule does not guarantee until and
unless public discussion gives these rights enough political
visibility and status to produce general public support. This
certainly did not happen in the state of Gujarat last year, when
politically engineered anti-Muslim riots led to unprecedented Hindu
sectarian militancy and an electoral victory for the Hindu-chauvinist
state government. How scrupulously secularism and minority rights will
be guarded in India will depend on the reach and the vigor of public
discussion on this subject. If democracy is construed not merely in
terms of public balloting, but also in the more general form of public
reasoning, then what is required is a strengthening of democracy, not
a weakening of it.

To point to the need for more probing and more vigorous public
reasoning even in countries that formally have democratic institutions
must not be seen as a counsel of despair. People can and do respond to
generally aired concerns and appeals to tolerance and humanity, and
this is part of the role of public reasoning. Indeed, it is not easy
to dismiss the possibility that to a limited extent just such a
response may be occurring in India in the wake of the Gujarat riots
and the victory of Hindu sectarianism in the Gujarat elections in
December 2002. The engineered success in Gujarat did not help the
Bharatiya Janata Party, or BJP, in the state elections in the rest of
India that followed the Gujarat elections. The BJP lost in all four
state elections held in early 2003, but the defeat that was
particularly significant occurred in the state of Himachal Pradesh,
where the party had actually been in office but was routed this time,
winning only sixteen seats against the Congress Party's forty.
Moreover, a Muslim woman from the Congress Party won the mayoral
election in Ahmadabad, where some of the worst anti-Muslim riots in
Gujarat had occurred only a few months earlier. Much will depend on
the breadth and the energy of public reasoning in the future--an issue
that takes us back to the arguments presented by exponents of public
reasoning in India's past, including Ashoka and Akbar, whose analyses
remain thoroughly relevant today.

The complex role of public reasoning can also be seen in the
comparisons between China's and India's achievements in the field of
health care and longevity over recent decades. This happens to be a
subject that has interested Chinese and Indian public commentators
over millennia. While Faxian (Fa-Hien), a fifth-century Chinese
visitor who spent ten years in India, wrote admiringly in effusive
detail about the arrangements for public health care in Pataliputra, a
later visitor who came to India in the seventh century, Yi Jing
(I-Ching), argued in a more competitive vein that "in the healing arts
of acupuncture and cautery and the skill of feeling the pulse, China
has never been surpassed [by India]; the medicament for prolonging
life is only found in China." There was also considerable discussion
in India on chinachar--Chinese practice--in different fields when the
two countries were linked by Buddhism.

By the middle of the twentieth century, China and India had about the
same life expectancy at birth, around forty-five years or so. But
post-revolution China, with its public commitment to improve health
care and education (a commitment that was carried over from its days
of revolutionary struggle), brought a level of dedication in radically
enhancing health care that the more moderate Indian administration
could not at all match. By the time the economic reforms were
introduced in China in 1979, China had a lead of thirteen years or
more over India in longevity, with the Chinese life expectancy at
sixty-seven years, while India's was less than fifty-four years.
Still, even though the radical economic reforms introduced in China in
1979 ushered in a period of extraordinary economic growth, the
government slackened on the public commitment to health care, and in
particular replaced automatic and free health insurance by the need to
buy private insurance at one's own cost (except when provided by one's
employer, which happens only in a small minority of cases). This
largely retrograde movement in the coverage of health care met with
little public resistance (as it undoubtedly would have in a
multi-party democracy), even though it almost certainly had a role in
slowing down the progress of Chinese longevity. In India, by contrast,
unsatisfactory health services have come more and more under public
scrutiny and general condemnation, with some favorable changes being
forced on the services offered.

Despite China's much faster rate of growth since the economic reforms,
the rate of expansion of life expectancy in India has been about three
times as fast, on the average, as that in China. China's life
expectancy, which is now just about seventy years, compares with
India's figure of sixty-three years, so that the lifeexpectancy gap in
favor of China has been nearly halved, to seven years, over the last
two decades. But note must be taken of the fact that it gets
increasingly harder to expand life expectancy further as the absolute
level rises, and it could be argued that perhaps China has now reached
a level at which further expansion would be exceptionally difficult.
Yet this explanation does not work, since China's life expectancy of
seventy years is still very far below the figures for many countries
in the world--indeed, even parts of India.

At the time of the economic reforms, when China had a life expectancy
of about sixty-seven years, the Indian state of Kerala had a similar
figure. By now, however, Kerala's life expectancy of seventy-four
years is considerably above China's seventy years. Going further, if
we look at specific points of vulnerability, the infant-mortality rate
in China has fallen very slowly since the economic reforms, whereas it
has continued to fall extremely sharply in Kerala. While Kerala had
roughly the same infant mortality rate as China--thirty-seven per
thousand--in 1979, Kerala's present rate, between thirteen and
fourteen per thousand, is considerably less than half of China's
thirty per thousand (where it has stagnated over the last decade). It
appears that Kerala, with its background of egalitarian politics, has
been able to benefit further from continued public reasoning protected
by a democratic system. The latter on its own would seem to have
helped India to narrow the gap with China quite sharply, despite the
failings of the Indian health services that are widely discussed in
the press. Indeed, the fact that so much is known--and in such
detail--about the inadequacies of Indian health care from criticisms
in the press is itself a contribution to improving the existing state
of affairs.

The informational role of democracy, working mainly through open
public discussion, can be pivotally important. It is the limitation of
this informational feature that has come most sharply to attention in
the context of the recent SARS epidemic. Although cases of SARS first
appeared in southern China in November 2002 and caused many
fatalities, information about the deadly new disease was kept under
wraps until this April. Indeed, it was only when that highly
infectious disease started spreading to Hong Kong and Beijing that the
news had to be released, and by then the epidemic had already gone
beyond the possibility of isolation and local elimination. The lack of
open public discussion evidently played a critical part in the spread
of the SARS epidemic in particular, but the general issue has a much
wider relevance.



V.

The value of public reasoning applies to reasoning about democracy
itself. It is good that the practices of democracy have been sharply
scrutinized in the literature on world affairs, for there are
identifiable deficiencies in the performance of many countries that
have the standard democratic institutions. Not only is public
discussion of these deficiencies an effective means of trying to
remedy them, but this is exactly how democracy in the form of public
reasoning is meant to function. In this sense, the defects of
democracy demand more democracy, not less.

The alternative--trying to cure the defects of democratic practice
through authoritarianism and the suppression of public
reasoning--increases the vulnerability of a country to sporadic
disasters (including, in many cases, famine), and also to the
whittling away of previously secured gains through a lack of public
vigilance (as seems to have happened, to some extent, in Chinese
health care). There is also a genuine loss of political freedom and
restrictions of civil rights in even the best-performing authoritarian
regimes, such as Singapore or pre-democratic South Korea; and,
furthermore, there is no guarantee that the suppression of democracy
would make, say, India more like Singapore than like Sudan or
Afghanistan, or more like South Korea than like North Korea.

Seeing democracy in terms of public reasoning, as "government by
discussion," also helps us to identify the far-reaching historical
roots of democratic ideas across the world. The apparent Western
modesty that takes the form of a humble reluctance to promote "Western
ideas of democracy" in the non-Western world includes an imperious
appropriation of a global heritage as exclusively the West's own. The
self-doubt with regard to "pushing" Western ideas on non-Western
societies is combined with the absence of doubt in viewing democracy
as a quintessentially Western idea, an immaculate Western conception.

This misappropriation results from gross neglect of the intellectual
history of non-Western societies, but also from the conceptual defect
in seeing democracy primarily in terms of balloting, rather than in
the broader perspective of public reasoning. A fuller understanding of
the demands of democracy and of the global history of democratic ideas
may contribute substantially to better political practice today. It
may also help to remove some of the artificial cultural fog that
obscures the appraisal of current affairs.
Awaken21
2003-11-01 00:01:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
As you point there are conditions within the new democracy that
must exist for it to work. I heard a very interesting speaker on just
this subject a few weeks ago who was on the U.S./U.N. teams involved
in nation building and he talked about democracies and culture the
recent U.S. successes and failures. He mentioned eastern europe, the
near east and africa as the examples. You'd have to research further
to know which were the exact instances and countries involved, I just
don't remember the names.
Actually, I was thinking of a wonderful article about the subject that
I read last month. This is a must read, written by Amartya Sen, who
received the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1998. (Unfortunately, it is
scholarly and well written and not the usual superficial tabloid or
blog sensationalism that clownish and vulgar posters alike fancy so
much, so I doubt anyone will read it except for perhaps Dr. Krugar, so
I'll give a pitch for it first.) For what it's worth, this is a
brilliant article in one of the most reputable and scholarly weekly
publications, and it has a bonus of tying in a lot of interesting
Buddhist history with this thread. Since it isn't a free web site and
I'm a subscriber, I'll paste in the article, even though it is
lenghty.
Yes, this is a thoughtful piece but really the problem is not with
nature of democracy although that does lead to sticky issues. The
actual problem is with trust. We will not be able to build a new Iraq
unless large portions of moderate elements within Iraq trust the us
and that's not happening. That has me more concerned than anything
else. Without the trust of the Iraqi people nothing is going to go
right for us and we will fail. Therefore recent news that George Bush
was unaware that many moderate Iraquis do not trust US intentions is
worrisome. It's critical to our success and he doesn't appear to be
getting accurate info from his advisers on this. That actually has me
more worried than any other tidbit of info at the moment.
jhayati
2003-11-01 04:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
As you point there are conditions within the new democracy that
must exist for it to work. I heard a very interesting speaker on just
this subject a few weeks ago who was on the U.S./U.N. teams involved
in nation building and he talked about democracies and culture the
recent U.S. successes and failures. He mentioned eastern europe, the
near east and africa as the examples. You'd have to research further
to know which were the exact instances and countries involved, I just
don't remember the names.
Actually, I was thinking of a wonderful article about the subject that
I read last month. This is a must read, written by Amartya Sen, who
received the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1998. (Unfortunately, it is
scholarly and well written and not the usual superficial tabloid or
blog sensationalism that clownish and vulgar posters alike fancy so
much; as I doubt anyone will read it except for perhaps Dr. Krugar,
I'll give a pitch for it first.) For what it's worth, this is a
brilliant article in one of the most reputable and scholarly weekly
publications, and it has a bonus of tying in a lot of interesting
Buddhist history with this thread. Since it isn't a free web site and
I'm a subscriber, I'll paste in the article, even though it is
lengthy.
Yes, this is a thoughtful piece
I think it is really well done and points out the main point.
Post by Awaken21
but really the problem is not with nature of democracy although
that does lead to sticky issues. The actual problem is with trust.
I'd say the problem is with freedom. Set up a system with freedom and
a chance to voice opinions and set up the economic infrastructure and
Iraq will flourish.
Post by Awaken21
We will not be able to build a new Iraq unless large portions of
moderate elements within Iraq trust the us and that's not happening.
The problem is the high unemployment rate: give them jobs and
stability and they will feel plenty of trust. For those that do have
jobs, the situation is better. Boosted by government make-work
programs, day labourers are getting double their pre-war wages. A
university dean's pay has gone up fourfold, a policeman's by a factor
of ten. Prime commercial property is up four times the level this
time last year.

Perhaps, then, you would go for the Hashimite solution. This may gain
their trust and expidite their government by using the old 1925
constitution that Saddam revoked when he became a socialist dictator.
The plan has merit, and was expressed recently in a WSJ piece
co-written by Bernard Lewis, arguably the world's foremost expert on
Islamic culture, and James Woolsey, who ran the CIA under the Clinton
administration. Their argument sounds reasonable to me.

- jay


http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110004230

King and Country
The Hashemite solution for Iraq.

BY BERNARD LEWIS AND R. JAMES WOOLSEY
Mr. Lewis is a professor emeritus at Princeton and the author, most
recently, of "The Crisis of Islam" (Modern Library, 2003). Mr. Woolsey
is a former director of the CIA.
Wednesday, October 29, 2003 12:01 a.m.

Following the recent passage of the Security Council resolution on
Iraq, the key issue continues to be how quickly to move toward
sovereignty and democracy for a new government. The resolution's call
for the Iraqi Governing Council to establish a timetable by Dec. 15
for creating a constitution and a democratic government has papered
over differences for the time being.

But there are still substantial disagreements even among people who
want to see democracy and the rule of law in Iraq as promptly as
possible. The U.S. sees the need for time to do the job right. France,
Germany and Russia want both more U.N. participation and more speed--a
pair of mutually exclusive objectives if there ever was one. Some
Iraqis call for an elected constitutional convention, others for a
rapid conferring of sovereignty, some for both. Many Middle Eastern
governments oppose democracy and thus some support whatever they think
will fail.

There may be a path through this thickening fog, made thicker by the
rocket and suicide-bombing attacks of the last three days. It is
important to help Ambassador Paul Bremer and the coalition forces to
establish security. But it is also important to take an early step
toward Iraqi sovereignty and to move toward representative government.
The key is that Iraq already has a constitution. It was legally
adopted in 1925 and Iraq was governed under it until the series of
military, then Baathist, coups began in 1958 and brought over four
decades of steadily worsening dictatorship. Iraqis never chose to
abandon their 1925 constitution--it was taken from them. The document
is not ideal, and it is doubtless not the constitution under which a
modern democratic Iraq will ultimately be governed. But a quick review
indicates that it has some very useful features that would permit it
to be used on an interim basis while a new constitution is drafted.
Indeed, the latter could be approved as an omnibus amendment to the
1925 document.

This seems possible because the 1925 Iraqi constitution--which
establishes that the nation's sovereignty "resides in the
people"--provides for an elected lower house of parliament, which has
a major role in approving constitutional amendments. It also contains
a section on "The Rights of the People" that declares Islam as the
official religion, but also provides for freedom of worship for all
Islamic sects and indeed for all religions and for "complete freedom
of conscience." It further guarantees "freedom of expression of
opinion, liberty of publication, of meeting together, and of forming
and joining associations." In different words, the essence of much of
our own Bill of Rights is reflected therein.

We need not shy away from the 1925 constitution because it establishes
a constitutional monarchy. Understandings could readily be worked out
that would not lead to a diminution of Amb. Bremer's substantive
authority in vital areas during the transition--some ministries may,
e.g., transition to Iraqi control before others. In the document as it
now stands the monarch has some important powers since he appoints the
government's ministers, including a prime minister, and the members of
the upper house, or senate.

Many of these and other provisions would doubtless be changed through
amendment, although the members of the current Governing Council might
be reasonably appointed to some of these positions on an interim
basis. Some new features, such as explicit recognition of equal rights
for women, a point not clear in the 1925 document, would need to be
adopted at the outset. During a transition, pursuant to consultations
with Amb. Bremer and with groups in Iraq, the king could under the
constitution appoint ministers, including a prime minister, and also
adopt provisional rules for elections. The elected parliament could
then take a leading role in amending the constitution and establishing
the rules for holding further elections.

Using the 1925 constitution as a transitional document would be
entirely consistent with permanently establishing as head of state
either a president or a monarch that, like the U.K.'s, reigns but does
not rule.

It is worth noting that monarchy and democracy coexist happily in a
number of countries. Indeed, of the nations that have been democracies
for a very long time and show every sign that they will remain so, a
substantial majority are constitutional monarchies (the U.S. and
Switzerland being the principal exceptions). And we should recall how
important King Juan Carlos was to the transition from fascism to
democracy in Spain. As odd as the notion may seem to Americans whose
national identity was forged in rebellion against George III, there is
nothing fundamentally undemocratic about a limited monarchy's serving
as a transitional, or even a long-term, constitutional structure in
Iraq or any other country.

Selecting the right monarch for the transitional government would be
vitally important. Conveniently, the 1925 constitution provides that
the people of Iraq are deemed to have "confided . . . a trust" to
"King Faisal, son of Hussain, and to his heirs . . . ." If the allies
who liberated Iraq recognized an heir of this Hashemite line as its
constitutional monarch, and this monarch agreed to help bring about a
modern democracy under the rule of law, such a structure could well be
the framework for a much smoother transition to democracy than now
seems at hand. The Sunni Hashemites, being able to claim direct
descent from the Prophet Mohammed, have historically been respected by
the Shiites, who constitute a majority of the people of Iraq, although
the latter recognize a different branch of the family. It is the
Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia, not the Hashemites, who have been the
Shiites' persecutors.

The respect enjoyed by the Hashemites has been earned. They have had a
generally deserved reputation for tolerance and coexistence with other
faiths and other branches of Islam. Many Iraqis look back on the era
of Hashemite rule from the 1920s to the 1950s as a golden age. And
during the period of over 1,000 years when the Hashemites ruled the
Hejaz, wherein the Muslim holy cities of Mecca and Medina are located,
they dealt tolerantly with all Muslims during the Haj, or annual
pilgrimage. Disagreements and tension under Hashemite rule have never
come close either to the bloody conflicts of many centuries' duration
in Europe between Catholics and Protestants or to the massacres and
hatred perpetrated by the Wahhabis and their allies in the House of
Saud.

Recently in a brilliant essay in the New Republic, Nobel Prize winner
Amartya Sen has pointed out that tolerance and "the exercise of public
reason" have given democracy solid roots in many of the world's
non-European cultures, and that balloting must be accompanied by such
local traditions in order for democracy and the rule of law to take
root. The legitimacy and continuity which the Hashemites represent for
large numbers of people in the Middle East, and the tolerance of
"public reason" with which they have been associated, could provide a
useful underpinning for the growth of democracy in Iraq.

Historically, rulers in the Middle East have held office for life and
have nominated their successors, ordinarily from within the reigning
family. This ensured legitimacy, stability and continuity, and usually
though not invariably took the form of monarchy. In the modern era
succession by violence has sadly become more prevalent. It would be
reasonable to use the traditional Middle Eastern concepts of
legitimacy and succession and to build on the wide and historic
appreciation for the rule of law and of limited government to help
bring about a transition to democracy. The identification of
legitimacy with the Western practice of balloting has now occurred in
many cultures around the world, but it may well occur sooner in Iraq
if it is developed at least initially as an expanding aspect of an
already legitimate constitutional order.

Some contend that a process that gave the U.N. a central role would
somehow confer legitimacy. We are at a loss to understand this
argument. Nearly 40% of the U.N. members' governments do not practice
succession by election. In the Middle East only Israel and Turkey do
so. Why waste time with U.N. member governments, many of them
nondemocratic, working out their differences--and some indeed
fundamentally oppose democracy in Iraq--when the key parties who need
to do that are the Iraqis? Besides, real legitimacy ultimately will
come about when Iraq has a government that "deriv[es] its just power
from the consent of the governed." During a transition in which Iraq
is moving toward democracy, a government that is operating under its
existing constitution, with a monarch as called for in that document,
is at least as legitimate as the governments of U.N. members that are
not democracies at all.

Much would hinge on the willingness of the king to work closely and
cooperatively with Amb. Bremer and to appoint a responsible and able
prime minister. The king should be a Hashemite prince with political
experience and no political obligations or commitments. In view of the
nation's Shiite majority, the prime minister should be a modern Shiite
with a record of opposition to tyranny and oppression. Such leaders
would be well-suited to begin the process that would in time lead to
genuinely free and fair elections, sound amendments to the 1925 Iraqi
Constitution, and the election of a truly representative governing
body. We would also strongly suggest that the choices of king and
prime minister be made on the basis of character, ability and
political experience--not on the basis of bias, self-interest, grudges
or rivalries held or felt by some in the region and indeed by some in
the U.S. government.
Awaken21
2003-11-03 16:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
As you point there are conditions within the new democracy that
must exist for it to work. I heard a very interesting speaker on just
this subject a few weeks ago who was on the U.S./U.N. teams involved
in nation building and he talked about democracies and culture the
recent U.S. successes and failures. He mentioned eastern europe, the
near east and africa as the examples. You'd have to research further
to know which were the exact instances and countries involved, I just
don't remember the names.
Actually, I was thinking of a wonderful article about the subject that
I read last month. This is a must read, written by Amartya Sen, who
received the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1998. (Unfortunately, it is
scholarly and well written and not the usual superficial tabloid or
blog sensationalism that clownish and vulgar posters alike fancy so
much; as I doubt anyone will read it except for perhaps Dr. Krugar,
I'll give a pitch for it first.) For what it's worth, this is a
brilliant article in one of the most reputable and scholarly weekly
publications, and it has a bonus of tying in a lot of interesting
Buddhist history with this thread. Since it isn't a free web site and
I'm a subscriber, I'll paste in the article, even though it is
lengthy.
Yes, this is a thoughtful piece
I think it is really well done and points out the main point.
Post by Awaken21
but really the problem is not with nature of democracy although
that does lead to sticky issues. The actual problem is with trust.
I'd say the problem is with freedom. Set up a system with freedom and
a chance to voice opinions and set up the economic infrastructure and
Iraq will flourish.
And you are going to that without the trust of the Iraqi people?
I'd say to do what you plan requires trust. Trust is the foundation of
all useful human cooperation and interaction. Without it you have
nothing and the U.S. involvement will ultimately fail or be passed on
to other govewrnments.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
We will not be able to build a new Iraq unless large portions of
moderate elements within Iraq trust the us and that's not happening.
The problem is the high unemployment rate: give them jobs and
stability and they will feel plenty of trust.
Then we really have an issue because unless they are working with
Haliburton, we have no job creation strategy currently. And since we
must gain their trust BEFORE we can create a stable economy and a
functioning democracy, that becomes a serious horse and buggy issue.
Post by jhayati
For those that do have
jobs, the situation is better. Boosted by government make-work
programs, day labourers are getting double their pre-war wages. A
university dean's pay has gone up fourfold, a policeman's by a factor
of ten. Prime commercial property is up four times the level this
time last year.
And you are going to that without the trust of the Iraqi people?
Post by jhayati
Perhaps, then, you would go for the Hashimite solution. This may gain
their trust and expidite their government by using the old 1925
constitution that Saddam revoked when he became a socialist dictator.
Yes, the U.S. support of overthrow of a functioning democracy is real
black eye for us and one of a few valid reasons the Iraqis do not
trust U.S. involvement. Perhaps we should study what was working
before and perhaps that would restore at least a workable level of
trust.
jhayati
2003-11-04 00:33:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
As you point there are conditions within the new democracy that
must exist for it to work. I heard a very interesting speaker on just
this subject a few weeks ago who was on the U.S./U.N. teams involved
in nation building and he talked about democracies and culture the
recent U.S. successes and failures. He mentioned eastern europe, the
near east and africa as the examples. You'd have to research further
to know which were the exact instances and countries involved, I just
don't remember the names.
Actually, I was thinking of a wonderful article about the subject that
I read last month. This is a must read, written by Amartya Sen, who
received the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1998. (Unfortunately, it is
scholarly and well written and not the usual superficial tabloid or
blog sensationalism that clownish and vulgar posters alike fancy so
much; as I doubt anyone will read it except for perhaps Dr. Krugar,
I'll give a pitch for it first.) For what it's worth, this is a
brilliant article in one of the most reputable and scholarly weekly
publications, and it has a bonus of tying in a lot of interesting
Buddhist history with this thread. Since it isn't a free web site and
I'm a subscriber, I'll paste in the article, even though it is
lengthy.
Yes, this is a thoughtful piece
I think it is really well done and points out the main point.
Post by Awaken21
but really the problem is not with nature of democracy although
that does lead to sticky issues. The actual problem is with trust.
I'd say the problem is with freedom. Set up a system with freedom and
a chance to voice opinions and set up the economic infrastructure and
Iraq will flourish.
And you are going to that without the trust of the Iraqi people?
I'd say to do what you plan requires trust. Trust is the foundation
of all useful human cooperation and interaction.
Well, just this weekend, one of the most outspoken anti-occupation
Iraqi leaders has shifted his position. Iraqi Shiite leader Muqtada
al-Sadr is now calling Americans a "peace-loving people" and saying
U.S. forces are "guests" in Iraq. The statement contradicts previous
rhetoric in which he repeatedly slammed the U.S. occupation and called
for the withdrawal of coalition forces. al-Sadr repeatedly had
condemned the U.S. military occupation, called for the withdrawal of
U.S. forces and a full handover of power to indigenous Iraqi
authorities. He has a large following in Sadr City, the eastern
Baghdad slum named after his father, and he also has supporters in the
Shiite shrine cities of An Najaf and Karbala. More important, the
young cleric also commands a militia known as the Jaysh al-Mahdi, or
Mahdi Army. So a shift in the trust of the most anti-occupation
leaders and clerics is a very positive sign.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
We will not be able to build a new Iraq unless large portions of
moderate elements within Iraq trust the us and that's not happening.
The problem is the high unemployment rate: give them jobs and
stability and they will feel plenty of trust.
Then we really have an issue because unless they are working with
Haliburton, we have no job creation strategy currently. And since we
must gain their trust BEFORE we can create a stable economy and a
functioning democracy, that becomes a serious horse and buggy issue.
You're putting the cart before the horse. The stable economy, and the
arrest of the criminals still blowing up things, will lead to trust.
And why do you say Haliburton is the only company employing Iraqis?
Or is that because Haliburton is accused by the anti-American and
far-left because Cheney used to work for them, is evoking the name
supposed to be some kind of argument?
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
For those that do have
jobs, the situation is better. Boosted by government make-work
programs, day labourers are getting double their pre-war wages. A
university dean's pay has gone up fourfold, a policeman's by a factor
of ten. Prime commercial property is up four times the level this
time last year.
And you are going to that without the trust of the Iraqi people?
Again, the Iraqi people for the most part have plenty of trust, but
not enough hope, and too many don't have jobs. We need to get a
larger Iraqi police force so that they can deal with the current
terrorist problems, and American troops can pull back and control the
borders and other functions outside of normal functions in the cities.
Over 100,000 Iraqis who were serving in the army are now working for
the police, the site protection, the civil defense, and the border
patrols. It's gone from zero up to 100,000, and our plan is to take
it in excess 200,000 by next year.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Perhaps, then, you would go for the Hashimite solution. This may gain
their trust and expidite their government by using the old 1925
constitution that Saddam revoked when he became a socialist dictator.
Yes, the U.S. support of overthrow of a functioning democracy is real
black eye for us and one of a few valid reasons the Iraqis do not
trust U.S. involvement.
No, it was Saddam that overthrew the democracy and the U.S. overthrew
the opposite of democracy, the most disgusting socialist totalitarian
dictatorship on the planet. What the Iraqis know are four decades of
totalitarian rule by a murderous dictator. That's why they mostly
welcome the U.S. involvement.
Post by Awaken21
Perhaps we should study what was working before
Oh, you mean study the videotapes of Saddam chopping off fingers and
throwing people off cliffs. Yes, that worked very well. Perhaps for
you, that is acceptable. The point is that Saddam's system wasn't
working very well at all.

When you've got so many Iraqis -- 100,000 -- now providing for their
own security; where you have a governing council and a bunch of
ministers; and you have a Central Bank; and you have a new currency;
and you have all the universities and colleges open; and the hospitals
are open; and there was not a humanitarian crisis -- sitting around
wringing your hands and saying, 'Things are terrible and the Iraqi's
don't trust us" is nonsense when things are going well and most of the
Iraqis do trust us and the majority of them say that they want us to
stay as long as possible.

- jay
Awaken21
2003-11-04 17:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
As you point there are conditions within the new democracy that
must exist for it to work. I heard a very interesting speaker on just
this subject a few weeks ago who was on the U.S./U.N. teams involved
in nation building and he talked about democracies and culture the
recent U.S. successes and failures. He mentioned eastern europe, the
near east and africa as the examples. You'd have to research further
to know which were the exact instances and countries involved, I just
don't remember the names.
Actually, I was thinking of a wonderful article about the subject that
I read last month. This is a must read, written by Amartya Sen, who
received the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1998. (Unfortunately, it is
scholarly and well written and not the usual superficial tabloid or
blog sensationalism that clownish and vulgar posters alike fancy so
much; as I doubt anyone will read it except for perhaps Dr. Krugar,
I'll give a pitch for it first.) For what it's worth, this is a
brilliant article in one of the most reputable and scholarly weekly
publications, and it has a bonus of tying in a lot of interesting
Buddhist history with this thread. Since it isn't a free web site and
I'm a subscriber, I'll paste in the article, even though it is
lengthy.
Yes, this is a thoughtful piece
I think it is really well done and points out the main point.
Post by Awaken21
but really the problem is not with nature of democracy although
that does lead to sticky issues. The actual problem is with trust.
I'd say the problem is with freedom. Set up a system with freedom and
a chance to voice opinions and set up the economic infrastructure and
Iraq will flourish.
And you are going to that without the trust of the Iraqi people?
I'd say to do what you plan requires trust. Trust is the foundation
of all useful human cooperation and interaction.
Well, just this weekend, one of the most outspoken anti-occupation
Iraqi leaders has shifted his position. Iraqi Shiite leader Muqtada
al-Sadr is now calling Americans a "peace-loving people" and saying
U.S. forces are "guests" in Iraq. The statement contradicts previous
rhetoric in which he repeatedly slammed the U.S. occupation and called
for the withdrawal of coalition forces. al-Sadr repeatedly had
condemned the U.S. military occupation, called for the withdrawal of
U.S. forces and a full handover of power to indigenous Iraqi
authorities. He has a large following in Sadr City, the eastern
Baghdad slum named after his father, and he also has supporters in the
Shiite shrine cities of An Najaf and Karbala. More important, the
young cleric also commands a militia known as the Jaysh al-Mahdi, or
Mahdi Army. So a shift in the trust of the most anti-occupation
leaders and clerics is a very positive sign.
Interesting. On the other hand this week Bush was surprised to hear
from an important group of moderate leaders (the one's we most need on
our side) that they are distrustful of american intentions. Much more
significant in my book than 1 shiite leader falling in line.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
We will not be able to build a new Iraq unless large portions of
moderate elements within Iraq trust the us and that's not happening.
The problem is the high unemployment rate: give them jobs and
stability and they will feel plenty of trust.
Then we really have an issue because unless they are working with
Haliburton, we have no job creation strategy currently. And since we
must gain their trust BEFORE we can create a stable economy and a
functioning democracy, that becomes a serious horse and buggy issue.
You're putting the cart before the horse. The stable economy, and the
arrest of the criminals still blowing up things, will lead to trust.
Ahhh, this where we disagree. I don't think you'll get a stable
economy nor a funnctioning democracy without trust first.
Post by jhayati
And why do you say Haliburton is the only company employing Iraqis?
I didn't say that.
Post by jhayati
Or is that because Haliburton is accused by the anti-American and
far-left because Cheney used to work for them, is evoking the name
supposed to be some kind of argument?
Actually the fact that there is a appearance of cronyism is bad, but
my biggest issue with Haliburton is that my taxes are going directly
to them and no competitive bids were taken, nor are any forthcomming.

I mentioned them in relation to the employment situation because they
are currently the #1 employer in Iraq, I'm not into Left nor Right
propaganda. Words like "Anti-American" and "Far Left" are just buzz
words designed to rally the uneducated.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
For those that do have
jobs, the situation is better. Boosted by government make-work
programs, day labourers are getting double their pre-war wages. A
university dean's pay has gone up fourfold, a policeman's by a factor
of ten. Prime commercial property is up four times the level this
time last year.
And you are going to that without the trust of the Iraqi people?
Again, the Iraqi people for the most part have plenty of trust,
Our info on this subject is being interpreted completely differently.
Post by jhayati
but
not enough hope, and too many don't have jobs.
We need to get a
larger Iraqi police force so that they can deal with the current
terrorist problems, and American troops can pull back and control the
borders and other functions outside of normal functions in the cities.
Over 100,000 Iraqis who were serving in the army are now working for
the police, the site protection, the civil defense, and the border
patrols. It's gone from zero up to 100,000, and our plan is to take
it in excess 200,000 by next year.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Perhaps, then, you would go for the Hashimite solution. This may gain
their trust and expidite their government by using the old 1925
constitution that Saddam revoked when he became a socialist dictator.
Yes, the U.S. support of overthrow of a functioning democracy is real
black eye for us and one of a few valid reasons the Iraqis do not
trust U.S. involvement.
No, it was Saddam that overthrew the democracy and the U.S. overthrew
the opposite of democracy, the most disgusting socialist totalitarian
dictatorship on the planet. What the Iraqis know are four decades of
totalitarian rule by a murderous dictator. That's why they mostly
welcome the U.S. involvement.
You really didn't know the U.S. was the major backer of Saddam in the
overthrow of the Iraqi democracy? That's actually accepted historical
fact at this point.

That we recently came in and overthrew Saddam is true also, but it is
fact that we were happy to help him overthrow a democratic Iraq
because we were getting no cooperation on the Iran issue which was
viewed as critical.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Perhaps we should study what was working before
Oh, you mean study the videotapes of Saddam chopping off fingers and
throwing people off cliffs. Yes, that worked very well. Perhaps for
you, that is acceptable. The point is that Saddam's system wasn't
working very well at all.
No I mean study the Hashamite solution as you suggested. Try not
assume the worst you make yourself look foolish.
jhayati
2003-11-05 00:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Well, just this weekend, one of the most outspoken anti-occupation
Iraqi leaders has shifted his position. Iraqi Shiite leader Muqtada
al-Sadr is now calling Americans a "peace-loving people" and saying
U.S. forces are "guests" in Iraq. The statement contradicts previous
rhetoric in which he repeatedly slammed the U.S. occupation and called
for the withdrawal of coalition forces. al-Sadr repeatedly had
condemned the U.S. military occupation, called for the withdrawal of
U.S. forces and a full handover of power to indigenous Iraqi
authorities. He has a large following in Sadr City, the eastern
Baghdad slum named after his father, and he also has supporters in the
Shiite shrine cities of An Najaf and Karbala. More important, the
young cleric also commands a militia known as the Jaysh al-Mahdi, or
Mahdi Army. So a shift in the trust of the most anti-occupation
leaders and clerics is a very positive sign.
Interesting. On the other hand this week Bush was surprised to hear
from an important group of moderate leaders (the one's we most need on
our side) that they are distrustful of american intentions.
The problem here is the "they". Certainly this is true about a small
percentage. There is no single view shared by all 23 million however.
And most Iraqis are distrustful of everyone, so that being
distrustful of American intentions is sort of a misleading claim, as
there isn't a particular distrust, and they were even more distrusting
of the dictator.

So yes, you pointed out an exception to the mostly positive responses
we have from the Iraqis. Again, after being oppressed and lied to for
four decades, they are going to have to see it to believe it.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
We will not be able to build a new Iraq unless large portions of
moderate elements within Iraq trust the us and that's not happening.
The problem is the high unemployment rate: give them jobs and
stability and they will feel plenty of trust.
Then we really have an issue because unless they are working with
Haliburton, we have no job creation strategy currently. And since we
must gain their trust BEFORE we can create a stable economy and a
functioning democracy, that becomes a serious horse and buggy issue.
You're putting the cart before the horse. The stable economy, and the
arrest of the criminals still blowing up things, will lead to trust.
Ahhh, this where we disagree. I don't think you'll get a stable
economy nor a funnctioning democracy without trust first.
Well, that's a circular argument, as one is trusting if one has a
stable job, a solid economy, and can speak openly. That is, you talk
of trust as an abstract elusive concept, and I am using a practical
definition of trust as experiencing having a job and a stable economy.
That is, I'm using trust the way you claimed you use 'faith'. Again,
they are going to have to see it to believe it, so that trust is
almost purely a function of a demonstrably functioning economy.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
And why do you say Haliburton is the only company employing Iraqis?
I didn't say that.
Well you mentioned them to make one of those claims that there was
something unfair about Haliburton's contracts? If you want to make a
claim like that, please state it directly so that I can present
evidence that refutes it.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Or is that because Haliburton is accused by the anti-American and
far-left because Cheney used to work for them, is evoking the name
supposed to be some kind of argument?
Actually the fact that there is a appearance of cronyism is bad,
Yet there isn't much beyone the appearance.
Post by Awaken21
but my biggest issue with Haliburton is that my taxes are going directly
to them and no competitive bids were taken, nor are any forthcomming.
Actually, the longterm competitive bids are forthcoming.
Post by Awaken21
I mentioned them in relation to the employment situation because they
are currently the #1 employer in Iraq, I'm not into Left nor Right
propaganda. Words like "Anti-American" and "Far Left" are just buzz
words designed to rally the uneducated.
Unless they correctly describe the attack. For example, the rantings
of spinners such as Tariq Ali, whose almost every utterance is a
falsehood, is a fabulous case of anti-American and far-left spin.
He's the comic relief in far left publications like the Guardian. His
words are just buzz words designed to rally the uneducated, yes, but
pointing this out about him is not to be confused with what he does.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
For those that do have
jobs, the situation is better. Boosted by government make-work
programs, day labourers are getting double their pre-war wages. A
university dean's pay has gone up fourfold, a policeman's by a factor
of ten. Prime commercial property is up four times the level this
time last year.
And you are going to that without the trust of the Iraqi people?
Again, the Iraqi people for the most part have plenty of trust,
Our info on this subject is being interpreted completely differently.
I'm going just on what they say, but yes, everything can be spun into
its opposite, and one can always focus on the exceptional cases.
Also, the worst of such claims come from inside the hot-spot of the
sunni triangle, whereas the rest of the country is much different.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
We need to get a
larger Iraqi police force so that they can deal with the current
terrorist problems, and American troops can pull back and control the
borders and other functions outside of normal functions in the cities.
Over 100,000 Iraqis who were serving in the army are now working for
the police, the site protection, the civil defense, and the border
patrols. It's gone from zero up to 100,000, and our plan is to take
it in excess 200,000 by next year.
Again, the more Iraqis are policing Iraq and controlling the
criminals, the more the Iraqi people will experience the progress
being made.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Perhaps, then, you would go for the Hashimite solution. This may gain
their trust and expidite their government by using the old 1925
constitution that Saddam revoked when he became a socialist dictator.
Yes, the U.S. support of overthrow of a functioning democracy is real
black eye for us and one of a few valid reasons the Iraqis do not
trust U.S. involvement.
No, it was Saddam that overthrew the democracy and the U.S. overthrew
the opposite of democracy, the most disgusting socialist totalitarian
dictatorship on the planet. What the Iraqis know are four decades of
totalitarian rule by a murderous dictator. That's why they mostly
welcome the U.S. involvement.
You really didn't know the U.S. was the major backer of Saddam in the
overthrow of the Iraqi democracy?
As I said in a previous post, as you know,
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
We trained Saddam. The CIA trained him 1959, and he was sent with a
six-man squad to assassinate Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim
Qasim, who was becoming to chummy with the Soviets. We trained Osama
as well. These guys come back to haunt us later. The strange thing
is that the "drunk projecting muscleheads", as you call them, don't
read the facts and look at the kind of decisions we made, and instead
they want to blame Exxon or something.
Training Saddam to overthrow a Soviet-backed leader of Iraq is one
thing, removing him is another. There is an interesting irony here.
Those who whine about backing dictators now whine when we do the
opposite and remove a horrible, evil dictator. You can't have it both
ways. If you are against our supporting dictators for strategic
reasons, then you should praise the removal of a most horrible one.
Post by Awaken21
That's actually accepted historical fact at this point.
However, it has nothing to do with the best move, now that the
dictator is there and is a threat to not only his neighbors but to
global economic stability, it doesn't matter that we used him as a
pawn against an even more horrible threat forty years ago. The idea
that because there were bad consequences of our decisions forty years
ago, that now therefore we should allow him to murder millions or
disrupt the world economy doesn't follow at all rationally. It
wouldn't matter if he had been a Soviet pawn instead of an American
pawn. All that counts is what he was doing now and what the potential
threats were that we could avoid by removing him.
Post by Awaken21
That we recently came in and overthrew Saddam is true also, but it is
fact that we were happy to help him overthrow a democratic Iraq
Again, this isn't true. We helped him overthrow a bloody regime after
Qasim had seized power. We were afraid of Iraq under Qasim becoming a
part of the Soviet Empire, and so we moved to block the Soviets from
taking Iraq. We did the same in Iran, with the Shaw and so forth a
few years previously, which then also came back to haunt us in 1979.
Post by Awaken21
because we were getting no cooperation on the Iran issue which was
viewed as critical.
No, the Soviets were our deep concern. And we did not destroy a
democracy. Abd Karim Qasim on his own seized power and kicked out our
allies the British in 1958, and began a bloody and repressive regime.
But that was OK, because Iraq was still seen as a buffer against the
Soviet Union. It was only when Qasim changed his allegiances the
following year and started to deal with the Russians that the head of
the CIA declared Iraq "the most dangerous spot in the world". A plot
was hatched to assassinate the Prime Minister. The man at
the centre of the plot was a 22-year old thug named Saddam, described
as having no class. Saddam killed the wrong man, winged the Prime
Minister and was accidentally shot in the leg by a colleague. He then
had to be bundled out of Iraq and shunted around Beirut and Ciaro
under CIA protection, only to seize power a few years later and begin
an even bloodier and more repressive regime. Saddam couldn't do
anything right, even when he was helped by us. If he wasn't so
murderous, he would be a laughing stock.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Perhaps we should study what was working before
Oh, you mean study the videotapes of Saddam chopping off fingers and
throwing people off cliffs. Yes, that worked very well. Perhaps for
you, that is acceptable. The point is that Saddam's system wasn't
working very well at all.
No I mean study the Hashamite solution as you suggested.
Try not assume the worst you make yourself look foolish.
Since you tend to present the worst most of the time, I simply
anticipated the same pattern. As for "looking foolish" I don't care
how I look to you; I only care about presenting the most objective and
truthful and large-scale holistic perspectives on these issues without
emotionalism or spin. Of course you're welcome to laugh at that, just
as I laugh at the conspiracy theorists and spinners.

- jay
Awaken21
2003-11-05 15:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Well, just this weekend, one of the most outspoken anti-occupation
Iraqi leaders has shifted his position. Iraqi Shiite leader Muqtada
al-Sadr is now calling Americans a "peace-loving people" and saying
U.S. forces are "guests" in Iraq. The statement contradicts previous
rhetoric in which he repeatedly slammed the U.S. occupation and called
for the withdrawal of coalition forces. al-Sadr repeatedly had
condemned the U.S. military occupation, called for the withdrawal of
U.S. forces and a full handover of power to indigenous Iraqi
authorities. He has a large following in Sadr City, the eastern
Baghdad slum named after his father, and he also has supporters in the
Shiite shrine cities of An Najaf and Karbala. More important, the
young cleric also commands a militia known as the Jaysh al-Mahdi, or
Mahdi Army. So a shift in the trust of the most anti-occupation
leaders and clerics is a very positive sign.
Interesting. On the other hand this week Bush was surprised to hear
from an important group of moderate leaders (the one's we most need on
our side) that they are distrustful of american intentions.
The problem here is the "they". Certainly this is true about a small
percentage.
There is no single view shared by all 23 million however.
And most Iraqis are distrustful of everyone, so that being
distrustful of American intentions is sort of a misleading claim, as
there isn't a particular distrust, and they were even more distrusting
of the dictator.
First you say small percentage, then you say they distrust everyone, I
guess you need to think this through a bit.
Post by jhayati
So yes, you pointed out an exception to the mostly positive responses
we have from the Iraqis. Again, after being oppressed and lied to for
four decades, they are going to have to see it to believe it.
And now you've conceded my point completely. thank you.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
We will not be able to build a new Iraq unless large portions of
moderate elements within Iraq trust the us and that's not happening.
The problem is the high unemployment rate: give them jobs and
stability and they will feel plenty of trust.
Then we really have an issue because unless they are working with
Haliburton, we have no job creation strategy currently. And since we
must gain their trust BEFORE we can create a stable economy and a
functioning democracy, that becomes a serious horse and buggy issue.
You're putting the cart before the horse. The stable economy, and the
arrest of the criminals still blowing up things, will lead to trust.
Ahhh, this where we disagree. I don't think you'll get a stable
economy nor a funnctioning democracy without trust first.
Well, that's a circular argument, as one is trusting if one has a
stable job, a solid economy, and can speak openly. That is, you talk
of trust as an abstract elusive concept, and I am using a practical
definition of trust as experiencing having a job and a stable economy.
That is, I'm using trust the way you claimed you use 'faith'. Again,
they are going to have to see it to believe it, so that trust is
almost purely a function of a demonstrably functioning economy.
They won't see it if they don't believe it first. It's human nature.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
And why do you say Haliburton is the only company employing Iraqis?
I didn't say that.
Well you mentioned them to make one of those claims that there was
something unfair about Haliburton's contracts? If you want to make a
claim like that, please state it directly so that I can present
evidence that refutes it.
Yes, no bid contracts are not helpful and prone to corruption. I've
said that a few times now, you just keep conveniently forgetting what
I say, or more likely you're just not paying attention.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Or is that because Haliburton is accused by the anti-American and
far-left because Cheney used to work for them, is evoking the name
supposed to be some kind of argument?
Actually the fact that there is a appearance of cronyism is bad,
Yet there isn't much beyone the appearance.
You vastly underestimate the power of appearances.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
but my biggest issue with Haliburton is that my taxes are going directly
to them and no competitive bids were taken, nor are any forthcomming.
Actually, the longterm competitive bids are forthcoming.
Not anytime soon, they've had to start from scratch because the
bidder's withdrew saying the way the contract bids were structered
Haliburton was the ONLY company who could win the bid.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
I mentioned them in relation to the employment situation because they
are currently the #1 employer in Iraq, I'm not into Left nor Right
propaganda. Words like "Anti-American" and "Far Left" are just buzz
words designed to rally the uneducated.
Unless they correctly describe the attack. For example, the rantings
of spinners such as Tariq Ali, whose almost every utterance is a
falsehood, is a fabulous case of anti-American and far-left spin.
He's the comic relief in far left publications like the Guardian. His
words are just buzz words designed to rally the uneducated, yes, but
pointing this out about him is not to be confused with what he does.
Those words don't correctly describe anything but the prejudice and
blindness of the person who follows them.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
For those that do have
jobs, the situation is better. Boosted by government make-work
programs, day labourers are getting double their pre-war wages. A
university dean's pay has gone up fourfold, a policeman's by a factor
of ten. Prime commercial property is up four times the level this
time last year.
And you are going to that without the trust of the Iraqi people?
Again, the Iraqi people for the most part have plenty of trust,
Our info on this subject is being interpreted completely differently.
I'm going just on what they say, but yes, everything can be spun into
its opposite, and one can always focus on the exceptional cases.
Also, the worst of such claims come from inside the hot-spot of the
sunni triangle, whereas the rest of the country is much different.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
We need to get a
larger Iraqi police force so that they can deal with the current
terrorist problems, and American troops can pull back and control the
borders and other functions outside of normal functions in the cities.
Over 100,000 Iraqis who were serving in the army are now working for
the police, the site protection, the civil defense, and the border
patrols. It's gone from zero up to 100,000, and our plan is to take
it in excess 200,000 by next year.
Again, the more Iraqis are policing Iraq and controlling the
criminals, the more the Iraqi people will experience the progress
being made.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Perhaps, then, you would go for the Hashimite solution. This may gain
their trust and expidite their government by using the old 1925
constitution that Saddam revoked when he became a socialist dictator.
Yes, the U.S. support of overthrow of a functioning democracy is real
black eye for us and one of a few valid reasons the Iraqis do not
trust U.S. involvement.
No, it was Saddam that overthrew the democracy and the U.S. overthrew
the opposite of democracy, the most disgusting socialist totalitarian
dictatorship on the planet. What the Iraqis know are four decades of
totalitarian rule by a murderous dictator. That's why they mostly
welcome the U.S. involvement.
You really didn't know the U.S. was the major backer of Saddam in the
overthrow of the Iraqi democracy?
As I said in a previous post, as you know,
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
We trained Saddam. The CIA trained him 1959, and he was sent with a
six-man squad to assassinate Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim
Qasim, who was becoming to chummy with the Soviets. We trained Osama
as well. These guys come back to haunt us later. The strange thing
is that the "drunk projecting muscleheads", as you call them, don't
read the facts and look at the kind of decisions we made, and instead
they want to blame Exxon or something.
Training Saddam to overthrow a Soviet-backed leader of Iraq is one
thing, removing him is another. There is an interesting irony here.
Those who whine about backing dictators now whine when we do the
opposite and remove a horrible, evil dictator. You can't have it both
ways. If you are against our supporting dictators for strategic
reasons, then you should praise the removal of a most horrible one.
Post by Awaken21
That's actually accepted historical fact at this point.
However, it has nothing to do with the best move, now that the
dictator is there and is a threat to not only his neighbors but to
global economic stability, it doesn't matter that we used him as a
pawn against an even more horrible threat forty years ago. The idea
that because there were bad consequences of our decisions forty years
ago, that now therefore we should allow him to murder millions or
disrupt the world economy doesn't follow at all rationally. It
wouldn't matter if he had been a Soviet pawn instead of an American
pawn. All that counts is what he was doing now and what the potential
threats were that we could avoid by removing him.
Post by Awaken21
That we recently came in and overthrew Saddam is true also, but it is
fact that we were happy to help him overthrow a democratic Iraq
Again, this isn't true. We helped him overthrow a bloody regime after
Qasim had seized power. We were afraid of Iraq under Qasim becoming a
part of the Soviet Empire, and so we moved to block the Soviets from
taking Iraq. We did the same in Iran, with the Shaw and so forth a
few years previously, which then also came back to haunt us in 1979.
Post by Awaken21
because we were getting no cooperation on the Iran issue which was
viewed as critical.
No, the Soviets were our deep concern. And we did not destroy a
democracy. Abd Karim Qasim on his own seized power and kicked out our
allies the British in 1958, and began a bloody and repressive regime.
But that was OK, because Iraq was still seen as a buffer against the
Soviet Union. It was only when Qasim changed his allegiances the
following year and started to deal with the Russians that the head of
the CIA declared Iraq "the most dangerous spot in the world". A plot
was hatched to assassinate the Prime Minister. The man at
the centre of the plot was a 22-year old thug named Saddam, described
as having no class. Saddam killed the wrong man, winged the Prime
Minister and was accidentally shot in the leg by a colleague. He then
had to be bundled out of Iraq and shunted around Beirut and Ciaro
under CIA protection, only to seize power a few years later and begin
an even bloodier and more repressive regime. Saddam couldn't do
anything right, even when he was helped by us. If he wasn't so
murderous, he would be a laughing stock.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Perhaps we should study what was working before
Oh, you mean study the videotapes of Saddam chopping off fingers and
throwing people off cliffs. Yes, that worked very well. Perhaps for
you, that is acceptable. The point is that Saddam's system wasn't
working very well at all.
No I mean study the Hashamite solution as you suggested.
Try not assume the worst you make yourself look foolish.
Since you tend to present the worst most of the time, I simply
anticipated the same pattern.
What? You're obviously not listening and I dislike talking to rocks.
Post by jhayati
As for "looking foolish" I don't care
how I look to you; I only care about presenting the most objective and
truthful and large-scale holistic perspectives on these issues without
emotionalism or spin. Of course you're welcome to laugh at that, just
as I laugh at the conspiracy theorists and spinners.
- jay
I'm not a consipirancy theorist, and you're anticipation of some kind
of pattern does not exist
jhayati
2003-11-05 19:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Well, just this weekend, one of the most outspoken anti-occupation
Iraqi leaders has shifted his position. Iraqi Shiite leader Muqtada
al-Sadr is now calling Americans a "peace-loving people" and saying
U.S. forces are "guests" in Iraq. The statement contradicts previous
rhetoric in which he repeatedly slammed the U.S. occupation and called
for the withdrawal of coalition forces. al-Sadr repeatedly had
condemned the U.S. military occupation, called for the withdrawal of
U.S. forces and a full handover of power to indigenous Iraqi
authorities. He has a large following in Sadr City, the eastern
Baghdad slum named after his father, and he also has supporters in the
Shiite shrine cities of An Najaf and Karbala. More important, the
young cleric also commands a militia known as the Jaysh al-Mahdi, or
Mahdi Army. So a shift in the trust of the most anti-occupation
leaders and clerics is a very positive sign.
Interesting. On the other hand this week Bush was surprised to hear
from an important group of moderate leaders (the one's we most need on
our side) that they are distrustful of american intentions.
The problem here is the "they". Certainly this is true about a small
percentage.
There is no single view shared by all 23 million however.
And most Iraqis are distrustful of everyone, so that being
distrustful of American intentions is sort of a misleading claim, as
there isn't a particular distrust, and they were even more distrusting
of the dictator.
First you say small percentage, then you say they distrust everyone, I
guess you need to think this through a bit.
No, I'm weeding through your generalizations. You're also playing
word games and trying to discredit me and twist my words instead of
discussing the issue. I'm rather disappointed.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
So yes, you pointed out an exception to the mostly positive responses
we have from the Iraqis. Again, after being oppressed and lied to for
four decades, they are going to have to see it to believe it.
And now you've conceded my point completely. thank you.
Actually, you conceded mine. Since distrust is a relative term, such
as "is big", I was denying the implication in "they distrust us" that
they distrust us more than others, whereas if you agree that they
distrust us less than others, that is what I was saying all along.
Perhaps you'd like to end the ego games and discuss the issue without
word games?
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Well, that's a circular argument, as one is trusting if one has a
stable job, a solid economy, and can speak openly. That is, you talk
of trust as an abstract elusive concept, and I am using a practical
definition of trust as experiencing having a job and a stable economy.
That is, I'm using trust the way you claimed you use 'faith'. Again,
they are going to have to see it to believe it, so that trust is
almost purely a function of a demonstrably functioning economy.
They won't see it if they don't believe it first. It's human nature.
No, belief is a function of what they experience, in economic
situations, so that getting a job will lead them to believe that they
have a job and that their situation is improving. Wishful thinking
does nothing. Removing the dictator, and now rebuilding the
infrastructure is an existential way of demonstrating trustworthiness.
Again, since beliefs in the economic progress are founded on
experiences, making it happen is all that needs to happen, and then
they will have the opportunity to function as a democratic society.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Unless they correctly describe the attack. For example, the rantings
of spinners such as Tariq Ali, whose almost every utterance is a
falsehood, is a fabulous case of anti-American and far-left spin.
He's the comic relief in far left publications like the Guardian.
Those words of his are just buzz words designed to rally the
uneducated, yes, but pointing this out about him is not to be
confused with what he does.
Those words don't correctly describe anything but the prejudice and
blindness of the person who follows them.
Yes, I agree about his words, but the prejudice and hatred of Tariq
Ali is widespread, and even though they are contradicted with facts,
such prejudiced and hateful people such as Tariq Ali are followed by
many blind people, and he actually gets published and such lies
spread. I'm not saying that all those opposed to liberating Iraq, or
even most of them, have that much venom, but the voices of Saddam and
Osama often live on through Tariq Ali, who is an especially potent and
rather evil liar who spreads disinformation.

- jay
Awaken21
2003-11-06 15:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Well, just this weekend, one of the most outspoken anti-occupation
Iraqi leaders has shifted his position. Iraqi Shiite leader Muqtada
al-Sadr is now calling Americans a "peace-loving people" and saying
U.S. forces are "guests" in Iraq. The statement contradicts previous
rhetoric in which he repeatedly slammed the U.S. occupation and called
for the withdrawal of coalition forces. al-Sadr repeatedly had
condemned the U.S. military occupation, called for the withdrawal of
U.S. forces and a full handover of power to indigenous Iraqi
authorities. He has a large following in Sadr City, the eastern
Baghdad slum named after his father, and he also has supporters in the
Shiite shrine cities of An Najaf and Karbala. More important, the
young cleric also commands a militia known as the Jaysh al-Mahdi, or
Mahdi Army. So a shift in the trust of the most anti-occupation
leaders and clerics is a very positive sign.
Interesting. On the other hand this week Bush was surprised to hear
from an important group of moderate leaders (the one's we most need on
our side) that they are distrustful of american intentions.
The problem here is the "they". Certainly this is true about a small
percentage.
There is no single view shared by all 23 million however.
And most Iraqis are distrustful of everyone, so that being
distrustful of American intentions is sort of a misleading claim, as
there isn't a particular distrust, and they were even more distrusting
of the dictator.
First you say small percentage, then you say they distrust everyone, I
guess you need to think this through a bit.
No, I'm weeding through your generalizations. You're also playing
word games and trying to discredit me and twist my words instead of
discussing the issue. I'm rather disappointed.
I'm not playing any word games. I have alot of experience with words
and sometimes I use them playfully, but in this case I haven't played
any games.
Disappointment is common to both of us in this exchange.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
So yes, you pointed out an exception to the mostly positive responses
we have from the Iraqis. Again, after being oppressed and lied to for
four decades, they are going to have to see it to believe it.
And now you've conceded my point completely. thank you.
Actually, you conceded mine. Since distrust is a relative term, such
as "is big", I was denying the implication in "they distrust us" that
they distrust us more than others, whereas if you agree that they
distrust us less than others, that is what I was saying all along.
Perhaps you'd like to end the ego games and discuss the issue without
word games?
No word games, it doesn't matter to me who else they distrust, if we
are to be successful we need to gain thier trust in spite of any
natural tendencies they may have.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Well, that's a circular argument, as one is trusting if one has a
stable job, a solid economy, and can speak openly. That is, you talk
of trust as an abstract elusive concept, and I am using a practical
definition of trust as experiencing having a job and a stable economy.
That is, I'm using trust the way you claimed you use 'faith'. Again,
they are going to have to see it to believe it, so that trust is
almost purely a function of a demonstrably functioning economy.
No it's other way around. You don't have to believe me, you can check
with any economist. The basis of any sound economy is something called
'consumer confidence', the economist's words for trust.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
They won't see it if they don't believe it first. It's human nature.
No, belief is a function of what they experience,
That would be nice, however in truth people believe what they believe
and they use thier intellect to interpret the experience in a way
compatible with thier beliefs. Again you don't have to believe me, you
can check with almost any basic phsychology reference manual.
Post by jhayati
in economic
situations, so that getting a job will lead them to believe that they
have a job and that their situation is improving. Wishful thinking
does nothing. Removing the dictator, and now rebuilding the
infrastructure is an existential way of demonstrating trustworthiness.
Again, since beliefs in the economic progress are founded on
experiences, making it happen is all that needs to happen, and then
they will have the opportunity to function as a democratic society.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Unless they correctly describe the attack. For example, the rantings
of spinners such as Tariq Ali, whose almost every utterance is a
falsehood, is a fabulous case of anti-American and far-left spin.
He's the comic relief in far left publications like the Guardian.
Those words of his are just buzz words designed to rally the
uneducated, yes, but pointing this out about him is not to be
confused with what he does.
Those words don't correctly describe anything but the prejudice and
blindness of the person who follows them.
Yes, I agree about his words, but the prejudice and hatred of Tariq
Ali is widespread, and even though they are contradicted with facts,
such prejudiced and hateful people such as Tariq Ali are followed by
many blind people, and he actually gets published and such lies
spread. I'm not saying that all those opposed to liberating Iraq, or
even most of them, have that much venom, but the voices of Saddam and
Osama often live on through Tariq Ali, who is an especially potent and
rather evil liar who spreads disinformation.
- jay
Disinformation is common to both sides of this issue.
jhayati
2003-11-06 23:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
No word games, it doesn't matter to me who else they distrust, if we
are to be successful we need to gain thier trust in spite of any
natural tendencies they may have.
Taking out Saddam was a heck of a good start. That would gain my
trust.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by jhayati
Well, that's a circular argument, as one is trusting if one has a
stable job, a solid economy, and can speak openly. That is, you talk
of trust as an abstract elusive concept, and I am using a practical
definition of trust as experiencing having a job and a stable economy.
That is, I'm using trust the way you claimed you use 'faith'. Again,
they are going to have to see it to believe it, so that trust is
almost purely a function of a demonstrably functioning economy.
No it's other way around. You don't have to believe me, you can check
with any economist.
I have. I'm only repeating what I've read. So I don't believe you,
and think that leaving Saddam in power or not rebuilding them and
talking instead would be absurd. That is, I go with the claim that
getting them jobs and getting their schools working, their electricity
running, and their oil flowing is the most important thing we can do
right now.

That is, we have to compare our actions with how much they could trust
the previous government. For example, high school students
spray-painting "Down With Saddam" on a wall got taken away, tortured,
and murdered. Even the most superstitious and clueless Iraqis can see
the difference: The students were accused of writing anti-government
graffiti at their school. "No one expected this would lead to
execution," said Jamal Latif Ridha, whose 17-year-old brother, Sattar,
was sent to the gallows at Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad. "We
thought Sattar would be imprisoned for just two or three months. They
were just being students." The number of students executed could be
as high as 35, but that could not be independently confirmed because
of a lack of records and the scattering of families over the years.
Former students and teachers said 37 students were arrested, and only
two are known to have been released. A reporter was able to establish
that 18 students from the school were killed.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
No, belief is a function of what they experience,
That would be nice, however in truth people believe what they believe
and they use thier intellect to interpret the experience in a way
compatible with their beliefs.
Sure, Punnadhammo is like that, and so can be others. But you
demonstrate enough, and the believers will become scarce. For
example, there are very few members in the "Flat Earth Society" these
days. And seeing that they can protest all they want and we don't
kill them, but instead help them rebuilt their country is so
astonishing that it is still unbelievable to many, sure. But they'll
get it sooner or later.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Yes, I agree about his words, but the prejudice and hatred of Tariq
Ali is widespread, and even though they are contradicted with facts,
such prejudiced and hateful people such as Tariq Ali are followed by
many blind people, and he actually gets published and such lies
spread. I'm not saying that all those opposed to liberating Iraq, or
even most of them, have that much venom, but the voices of Saddam and
Osama often live on through Tariq Ali, who is an especially potent and
rather evil liar who spreads disinformation.
- jay
Disinformation is common to both sides of this issue.
Which is why I ignore or don't take seriously the extremists on any
side, and I laugh at anyone who clings to any view to strongly, and
instead I study multiple sources of credible media. The biggest
problem is in the schools. Want to change beliefs and values? Then
work on educating the students. Under Saddam, Iraqi schoolchildren in
history classes imbibed the purest propaganda of the ruling Baath
Party. Iraqis won every war; Saddam was the most glorious defender of
Arab unity; American and Zionist imperialism was at the root of all
the world's suffering. Now, say American officials working for the
ruling Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) in Baghdad, Iraqi
teachers are free to disseminate history as honestly as they can.

But by taking your point here to heart in their desire not to be
thought to be shoving an equally distorted and subjective history diet
down young throats, Americans may be losing a chance to ensure that
young Iraqis do get a more truthful version of the past. While
'deSaddamising' the new texts being printed, the team revamping the
curriculum has deleted anything deemed controversial, including any
mention of the war between Iraq and Iran in the 1980s, the Gulf war of
1991, all references to Jews and Israel, Shias, Sunnis and Kurds, and
anything critical of America. There is nothing about the Shia
uprising in the south after the first Gulf war, and nothing about how
Saddam rose to power. Although Baathist and Guardian propaganda is
out, so is most of the modern history of the Middle East that has
affected Iraq.

"Entire swathes of 20th-century history have been deleted," said Bill
Evers, a Pentagon man who advises Iraq's education ministry. Fuad
Hussein, an Iraqi who has returned from abroad and is now in charge of
revising the curriculum, says he plans to set up a committee made up
of Iraqis from different religious, political and ethnic groups to
debate and rewrite Iraq's history. But that, he concedes, will take
years. So in the meantime, the Americans, who like myself are
obsessed with objectivity and don't want to take the risk of replacing
one kind of propaganda with another, are leaving out big chunks in the
schools curriculum. I would like to see the truth about Saddam, in
the most fair and objective light, be added to Iraqi textbooks as soon
as possible, and I think that would do the most good about changing
beliefs and trust, and will help them make the shift to a liberal
democracy.

Of course, some of the conspiracy theories and extremist claims are
really a hoot. One which even Punnadhammo might be skeptical of (but
probably wouldn't deny and would respond with "well I just don't
know") is the incredible shrinking Arab penis story that's been making
the rounds.

- jay



"A man from West Africa came into the shop and 'shook the store
owner's hand powerfully until the owner felt his penis melt into his
body.' I know the feeling. The same thing happened to me after shaking
hands with Sen. Clinton.... A handshake-fearing guy with a cell phone
is one thing; what happens when the handshake-fearers have cell phones
and a suitcase nuke?"


Muslim paranoia: Enemies made us impotent!
October 26, 2003
BY MARK STEYN CHICAGO SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

I haven't really followed Sudanese current events closely since, oh,
Gen. Kitchener's victory over the Mahdi at the Battle of Omdurman in
1898. But a recent story from that benighted land happened to catch my
eye. Last month mass hysteria apparently swept the capital city,
Khartoum, after reports that foreigners were shaking hands with
Sudanese men and causing their penises to disappear. One victim, a
fabric merchant, told his story to the London Arabic newspaper Al-Quds
Al-Arabi. A man from West Africa came into the shop and "shook the
store owner's hand powerfully until the owner felt his penis melt into
his body."

I know the feeling. The same thing happened to me after shaking hands
with Sen. Clinton. Anyway, as Al-Quds reported, "The store owner
became hysterical, and was taken to the hospital." The country's
"Chief Criminal Attorney General" Yasser Ahmad Muhammad told the
Sudanese daily Al-Rai Al-A'am that "the rumor broke out when one
merchant went to another merchant to buy some Karkady [a Sudanese
beverage]. Suddenly, the seller felt his penis shriveling."

The invaluable Middle East Media Research Institute, in its exhaustive
coverage, noted that the penises of Khartoum were vulnerable not
merely to handshaking. "Another victim, who refused to give his name,
said that while he was at the market, a man approached him, gave him a
comb, and asked him to comb his hair. When he did so, within seconds,
he said, he felt a strange sensation and discovered that he had lost
his penis."

Tales of the vanishing penises ran rampant round the city, spread by
cell phones and text messages. Sudan's Attorney General Salah Abu
Zayed declared that all complaints about the missing penises would be
brought before a special investigative committee, though doctors had
determined that the first plaintiff was "perfectly healthy." The
health minister, Ahmad Bilal Othman, said that the epidemic was
"scientifically groundless," and that it was "sorcery, magic, or an
emotional problem."

By now you're probably saying, "Oh, come on, Steyn, this Sudanese
penis thing is all very well, but you're supposed to be a columnist.
There's some big geopolitical argument behind all this tittering at
shriveling manhoods, isn't there?"

Absolutely. For one thing, a week after the Malaysian Prime Minister
told an Islamic summit that their "enemies," the Jews, control the
world and got a standing ovation from 56 fellow Muslim leaders, it's
useful to be reminded that the International Jewish Conspiracy is
comparatively one of the less loopy conspiracies in the Islamic world.
That said, they'll probably figure out a way to pin the disappearing
penises on some or other agent of Zionism. After all, according to
reports in Middle East newspapers, Israel laces Arab chewing gum with
secret hormones to make Muslim men hot for Jewish babes who turn out
to be Mossad agents. Come to think of it, remember those stories in
the National Enquirer after 9/11 about Osama bin Laden being, ah,
somewhat underendowed in the trouser department? He spent much of the
'90s in Sudan. Who's to say some Zionist didn't sneak up and shake his
hand while he was on a shopping trip to Khartoum?

It is, in that sense, the perfect emblematic tale of Islamic
victimhood: The foreigners have made us impotent! It doesn't matter
that the foreigners didn't do anything except shake hands. It doesn't
matter whether you are, in fact, impotent. You feel impotent, just as
-- so we're told -- millions of Muslims from Algerian Islamists to the
Bali bombers feel "humiliated" by the Palestinian situation. Whether
or not there is a rational basis for their sense of humiliation is
irrelevant.

One of the things I'd feel humiliated about if I lived in the Arab
world is that almost all the forms of expression of my anti-Westernism
are themselves Western in origin. Pan-Arabism was old-school 19th
century nationalism of the type that eventually unified the various
German and Italian statelets. Nasserism was transplanted European
socialism, Baathism a local anachronistic variant on 'tween-wars
Fascist movements. The Arabs even swiped Jew hatred from the
Europeans. Though there was certainly friction between Jews and
Muslims before the 20th century, it took the Europeans to package a
disorganized, free-lance dislike of Jews into a big-time ideology with
the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf and all the rest.

Even Islamic fundamentalism, though ostensibly a rare example of a
homegrown toxin, has, as a practical matter, more in common with
European revolutionary movements than with traditional expressions of
Islam -- an essentially political project piggybacking on an ancient
religion to create the ideology of choice for the world's
troublemakers.

There's something pathetic about a culture so ignorant even its
pathologies have to be imported. But what do you expect? The telling
detail of the vanishing penis hysteria is that it was spread by text
messaging. You can own a cell phone, yet still believe that foreigners
are able with a mere handshake to cause your penis to melt away.

Aside from its doubts in its collective manhood, Sudan is no laughing
matter. Two million people have been slaughtered there in the last
decade. The Christian minority is vanishing a lot faster than that
fabric merchant's privates. Osama certainly found the country fertile
ground for his ideology: Sudanese mujahideen have been captured as far
afield as Algeria, Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan. An economic
basket case with a 27 percent literacy rate has managed to find enough
spare cash to export revolutionary Islam to many other countries. And
they've got half-a-billion dollars' worth of state-of-the-art Chinese
weaponry from Iran.

A handshake-fearing guy with a cell phone is one thing; what happens
when the handshake-fearers have cell phones and a suitcase nuke? It's
at the intersection of apparently indestructible ancient ignorance and
cheap, widely available western technology that the dark imponderables
of the future lie.

In 1898, after Kitchener slaughtered the dervishes at Omdurman,
Hillaire Belloc wrote a characteristically pithy summation of the
British technological advantage:

"Whatever happens
We have got
The Maxim gun
And they have not."

But the dervishes have cell phones now. Those and some dimestore
boxcutters and a couple of ATM cards were all they needed to pull off
9/11.

And there are plenty of people out there willing to help them get the
cheap knock-offs of the 21st century's Maxim gun.
Marvin The Tourquise Turtle
2003-11-07 00:18:57 UTC
Permalink
jhayati wrote:

<<I'm only repeating what I've read.>>

and there's the whole of it.
Marvin The Tourquise Turtle
2003-11-07 01:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
In 1898, after Kitchener slaughtered the dervishes at Omdurman,
Hillaire Belloc wrote a characteristically pithy summation of the
"Whatever happens
We have got
The Maxim gun
And they have not."
But the dervishes have cell phones now. Those and some dimestore
boxcutters and a couple of ATM cards were all they needed to pull off
9/11.
And there are plenty of people out there willing to help them get the
cheap knock-offs of the 21st century's Maxim gun.
yer dumer than dogshit theres nothin to compare with the axis of intent's weapons delivery systems the crusades wer jus on hold
for a few centuries off we go into the wild blue yonder u need some trigger time boy only way u gonna appreciate life is by
losin it
Awaken21
2003-11-07 16:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
No word games, it doesn't matter to me who else they distrust, if we
are to be successful we need to gain thier trust in spite of any
natural tendencies they may have.
Taking out Saddam was a heck of a good start. That would gain my
trust.
Yes, you're pretty much a lemming, I've noticed that.
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Post by jhayati
Well, that's a circular argument, as one is trusting if one has a
stable job, a solid economy, and can speak openly. That is, you talk
of trust as an abstract elusive concept, and I am using a practical
definition of trust as experiencing having a job and a stable economy.
That is, I'm using trust the way you claimed you use 'faith'. Again,
they are going to have to see it to believe it, so that trust is
almost purely a function of a demonstrably functioning economy.
No it's other way around. You don't have to believe me, you can check
with any economist.
I have. I'm only repeating what I've read. So I don't believe you,
Again, it's not me, it's basic economic theory you don't believe.
Post by jhayati
and think that leaving Saddam in power or not rebuilding them and
talking instead would be absurd. That is, I go with the claim that
getting them jobs and getting their schools working, their electricity
running, and their oil flowing is the most important thing we can do
right now.
That is, we have to compare our actions with how much they could trust
the previous government. For example, high school students
spray-painting "Down With Saddam" on a wall got taken away, tortured,
and murdered. Even the most superstitious and clueless Iraqis can see
the difference: The students were accused of writing anti-government
graffiti at their school. "No one expected this would lead to
execution," said Jamal Latif Ridha, whose 17-year-old brother, Sattar,
was sent to the gallows at Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad. "We
thought Sattar would be imprisoned for just two or three months. They
were just being students." The number of students executed could be
as high as 35, but that could not be independently confirmed because
of a lack of records and the scattering of families over the years.
Former students and teachers said 37 students were arrested, and only
two are known to have been released. A reporter was able to establish
that 18 students from the school were killed.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
No, belief is a function of what they experience,
That would be nice, however in truth people believe what they believe
and they use thier intellect to interpret the experience in a way
compatible with their beliefs.
Sure, Punnadhammo is like that, and so can be others. But you
demonstrate enough, and the believers will become scarce.
You are the characater idealist you proclaim others to be.
Post by jhayati
For
example, there are very few members in the "Flat Earth Society" these
days. And seeing that they can protest all they want and we don't
kill them, but instead help them rebuilt their country is so
astonishing that it is still unbelievable to many, sure. But they'll
get it sooner or later.
Post by Awaken21
Post by jhayati
Yes, I agree about his words, but the prejudice and hatred of Tariq
Ali is widespread, and even though they are contradicted with facts,
such prejudiced and hateful people such as Tariq Ali are followed by
many blind people, and he actually gets published and such lies
spread. I'm not saying that all those opposed to liberating Iraq, or
even most of them, have that much venom, but the voices of Saddam and
Osama often live on through Tariq Ali, who is an especially potent and
rather evil liar who spreads disinformation.
- jay
Disinformation is common to both sides of this issue.
Which is why I ignore or don't take seriously the extremists
You would be well served to apply this to yourself.
Post by jhayati
on any
side, and I laugh at anyone who clings to any view to strongly, and
instead I study multiple sources of credible media. The biggest
problem is in the schools. Want to change beliefs and values? Then
work on educating the students. Under Saddam, Iraqi schoolchildren in
history classes imbibed the purest propaganda of the ruling Baath
Party. Iraqis won every war; Saddam was the most glorious defender of
Arab unity; American and Zionist imperialism was at the root of all
the world's suffering. Now, say American officials working for the
ruling Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) in Baghdad, Iraqi
teachers are free to disseminate history as honestly as they can.
But by taking your point here to heart in their desire not to be
thought to be shoving an equally distorted and subjective history diet
down young throats, Americans may be losing a chance to ensure that
young Iraqis do get a more truthful version of the past. While
'deSaddamising' the new texts being printed, the team revamping the
curriculum has deleted anything deemed controversial, including any
mention of the war between Iraq and Iran in the 1980s, the Gulf war of
1991, all references to Jews and Israel, Shias, Sunnis and Kurds, and
anything critical of America. There is nothing about the Shia
uprising in the south after the first Gulf war, and nothing about how
Saddam rose to power. Although Baathist and Guardian propaganda is
out, so is most of the modern history of the Middle East that has
affected Iraq.
"Entire swathes of 20th-century history have been deleted," said Bill
Evers, a Pentagon man who advises Iraq's education ministry. Fuad
Hussein, an Iraqi who has returned from abroad and is now in charge of
revising the curriculum, says he plans to set up a committee made up
of Iraqis from different religious, political and ethnic groups to
debate and rewrite Iraq's history. But that, he concedes, will take
years. So in the meantime, the Americans, who like myself are
obsessed with objectivity and don't want to take the risk of replacing
one kind of propaganda with another, are leaving out big chunks in the
schools curriculum. I would like to see the truth about Saddam, in
the most fair and objective light, be added to Iraqi textbooks as soon
as possible, and I think that would do the most good about changing
beliefs and trust, and will help them make the shift to a liberal
democracy.
Of course, some of the conspiracy theories and extremist claims are
really a hoot. One which even Punnadhammo might be skeptical of (but
probably wouldn't deny and would respond with "well I just don't
know") is the incredible shrinking Arab penis story that's been making
the rounds.
- jay
"A man from West Africa came into the shop and 'shook the store
owner's hand powerfully until the owner felt his penis melt into his
body.' I know the feeling. The same thing happened to me after shaking
hands with Sen. Clinton.... A handshake-fearing guy with a cell phone
is one thing; what happens when the handshake-fearers have cell phones
and a suitcase nuke?"
Muslim paranoia: Enemies made us impotent!
October 26, 2003
BY MARK STEYN CHICAGO SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST
I haven't really followed Sudanese current events closely since, oh,
Gen. Kitchener's victory over the Mahdi at the Battle of Omdurman in
1898. But a recent story from that benighted land happened to catch my
eye. Last month mass hysteria apparently swept the capital city,
Khartoum, after reports that foreigners were shaking hands with
Sudanese men and causing their penises to disappear. One victim, a
fabric merchant, told his story to the London Arabic newspaper Al-Quds
Al-Arabi. A man from West Africa came into the shop and "shook the
store owner's hand powerfully until the owner felt his penis melt into
his body."
I know the feeling. The same thing happened to me after shaking hands
with Sen. Clinton. Anyway, as Al-Quds reported, "The store owner
became hysterical, and was taken to the hospital." The country's
"Chief Criminal Attorney General" Yasser Ahmad Muhammad told the
Sudanese daily Al-Rai Al-A'am that "the rumor broke out when one
merchant went to another merchant to buy some Karkady [a Sudanese
beverage]. Suddenly, the seller felt his penis shriveling."
The invaluable Middle East Media Research Institute, in its exhaustive
coverage, noted that the penises of Khartoum were vulnerable not
merely to handshaking. "Another victim, who refused to give his name,
said that while he was at the market, a man approached him, gave him a
comb, and asked him to comb his hair. When he did so, within seconds,
he said, he felt a strange sensation and discovered that he had lost
his penis."
Tales of the vanishing penises ran rampant round the city, spread by
cell phones and text messages. Sudan's Attorney General Salah Abu
Zayed declared that all complaints about the missing penises would be
brought before a special investigative committee, though doctors had
determined that the first plaintiff was "perfectly healthy." The
health minister, Ahmad Bilal Othman, said that the epidemic was
"scientifically groundless," and that it was "sorcery, magic, or an
emotional problem."
By now you're probably saying, "Oh, come on, Steyn, this Sudanese
penis thing is all very well, but you're supposed to be a columnist.
There's some big geopolitical argument behind all this tittering at
shriveling manhoods, isn't there?"
Absolutely. For one thing, a week after the Malaysian Prime Minister
told an Islamic summit that their "enemies," the Jews, control the
world and got a standing ovation from 56 fellow Muslim leaders, it's
useful to be reminded that the International Jewish Conspiracy is
comparatively one of the less loopy conspiracies in the Islamic world.
That said, they'll probably figure out a way to pin the disappearing
penises on some or other agent of Zionism. After all, according to
reports in Middle East newspapers, Israel laces Arab chewing gum with
secret hormones to make Muslim men hot for Jewish babes who turn out
to be Mossad agents. Come to think of it, remember those stories in
the National Enquirer after 9/11 about Osama bin Laden being, ah,
somewhat underendowed in the trouser department? He spent much of the
'90s in Sudan. Who's to say some Zionist didn't sneak up and shake his
hand while he was on a shopping trip to Khartoum?
It is, in that sense, the perfect emblematic tale of Islamic
victimhood: The foreigners have made us impotent! It doesn't matter
that the foreigners didn't do anything except shake hands. It doesn't
matter whether you are, in fact, impotent. You feel impotent, just as
-- so we're told -- millions of Muslims from Algerian Islamists to the
Bali bombers feel "humiliated" by the Palestinian situation. Whether
or not there is a rational basis for their sense of humiliation is
irrelevant.
One of the things I'd feel humiliated about if I lived in the Arab
world is that almost all the forms of expression of my anti-Westernism
are themselves Western in origin. Pan-Arabism was old-school 19th
century nationalism of the type that eventually unified the various
German and Italian statelets. Nasserism was transplanted European
socialism, Baathism a local anachronistic variant on 'tween-wars
Fascist movements. The Arabs even swiped Jew hatred from the
Europeans. Though there was certainly friction between Jews and
Muslims before the 20th century, it took the Europeans to package a
disorganized, free-lance dislike of Jews into a big-time ideology with
the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Mein Kampf and all the rest.
Even Islamic fundamentalism, though ostensibly a rare example of a
homegrown toxin, has, as a practical matter, more in common with
European revolutionary movements than with traditional expressions of
Islam -- an essentially political project piggybacking on an ancient
religion to create the ideology of choice for the world's
troublemakers.
There's something pathetic about a culture so ignorant even its
pathologies have to be imported. But what do you expect? The telling
detail of the vanishing penis hysteria is that it was spread by text
messaging. You can own a cell phone, yet still believe that foreigners
are able with a mere handshake to cause your penis to melt away.
Aside from its doubts in its collective manhood, Sudan is no laughing
matter. Two million people have been slaughtered there in the last
decade. The Christian minority is vanishing a lot faster than that
fabric merchant's privates. Osama certainly found the country fertile
ground for his ideology: Sudanese mujahideen have been captured as far
afield as Algeria, Bosnia, Chechnya and Afghanistan. An economic
basket case with a 27 percent literacy rate has managed to find enough
spare cash to export revolutionary Islam to many other countries. And
they've got half-a-billion dollars' worth of state-of-the-art Chinese
weaponry from Iran.
A handshake-fearing guy with a cell phone is one thing; what happens
when the handshake-fearers have cell phones and a suitcase nuke? It's
at the intersection of apparently indestructible ancient ignorance and
cheap, widely available western technology that the dark imponderables
of the future lie.
In 1898, after Kitchener slaughtered the dervishes at Omdurman,
Hillaire Belloc wrote a characteristically pithy summation of the
"Whatever happens
We have got
The Maxim gun
And they have not."
But the dervishes have cell phones now. Those and some dimestore
boxcutters and a couple of ATM cards were all they needed to pull off
9/11.
And there are plenty of people out there willing to help them get the
cheap knock-offs of the 21st century's Maxim gun.
You are immature and listen little. I hope you eventually reach the
point where you are actually presenting what you've fooled yourself
into beleiving you are presenting now.
jhayati
2003-11-08 01:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by Awaken21
No word games, it doesn't matter to me who else they distrust, if we
are to be successful we need to gain thier trust in spite of any
natural tendencies they may have.
Taking out Saddam was a heck of a good start. That would gain my trust.
Yes, you're pretty much a lemming, I've noticed that.
No reply except for an insult? Ok, I take that as conceding my point.

snip to next comment
Post by Awaken21
Post by Awaken21
No it's other way around. You don't have to believe me, you can check
with any economist.
I have. I'm only repeating what I've read. So I don't believe you,
Again, it's not me, it's basic economic theory you don't believe.
Well, I was quoting top well-respected economists and analysts.
Perhaps you are over-simplifying the situation and not looking
carefully. When you tell me that top economists with Nobel Prizes and
so forth simply don't understand basic economic theory, me speculation
is that you are wrongly applying a simple view to a complex situation,
and skipping over the important concerns.

snip to next comment
Post by Awaken21
Post by Awaken21
Disinformation is common to both sides of this issue.
Which is why I ignore or don't take seriously the extremists
You would be well served to apply this to yourself.
You are immature and listen little.
Another insult, but no argument. Luckily I listen very carefully,
which is why you are completely without rebuttal or rational
criticism. When your replies don't have substance and are only
simplistic repetitions and insults, rather than any reasoning, that's
pretty much a "game over" concession and so I accept your resignation
and I'm off to the next thread.

- jay
Awaken21
2003-11-09 14:42:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by Awaken21
Post by Awaken21
No word games, it doesn't matter to me who else they distrust, if we
are to be successful we need to gain thier trust in spite of any
natural tendencies they may have.
Taking out Saddam was a heck of a good start. That would gain my trust.
Yes, you're pretty much a lemming, I've noticed that.
No reply except for an insult? Ok, I take that as conceding my point.
snip to next comment
Post by Awaken21
Post by Awaken21
No it's other way around. You don't have to believe me, you can check
with any economist.
I have. I'm only repeating what I've read. So I don't believe you,
Again, it's not me, it's basic economic theory you don't believe.
Well, I was quoting top well-respected economists and analysts.
Perhaps you are over-simplifying the situation and not looking
carefully. When you tell me that top economists with Nobel Prizes and
so forth simply don't understand basic economic theory, me speculation
is that you are wrongly applying a simple view to a complex situation,
and skipping over the important concerns.
snip to next comment
Post by Awaken21
Post by Awaken21
Disinformation is common to both sides of this issue.
Which is why I ignore or don't take seriously the extremists
You would be well served to apply this to yourself.
You are immature and listen little.
Another insult, but no argument. Luckily I listen very carefully,
which is why you are completely without rebuttal or rational
criticism. When your replies don't have substance and are only
simplistic repetitions and insults, rather than any reasoning, that's
pretty much a "game over" concession and so I accept your resignation
and I'm off to the next thread.
- jay
hehehehe. Hope you learn to read on day as well. Ciao, little boy.
punnadhammo
2003-10-15 16:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ch'an Fu
actually, you can't. there is international
"space law" which prevented the US from
claiming the moon.
Umm, since when did the US start following international law?
punnadhammo
2003-10-15 16:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Awaken21
Post by punnadhammo
Maybe if we could convince the american administration that there's oil
on Mars they'd suddenly discover a need to "liberate it".
Actually since no one is living there, I suspect we would simply annex
it, begin exploitation and dare anyone to say otherwise or act against
us.
First Bush would go on tv and make a speech - he'd say that microscopic
life has been discovered on Mars and he has "reliable intelligence"
that in a couple of billion years they could evolve into sentience and
build weapons of mass destruction. So we had better act now, before
Martian nukes are raining down on Crawford, TX.
jhayati
2003-10-17 04:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by punnadhammo
Post by Awaken21
Post by punnadhammo
Maybe if we could convince the american administration that there's oil
on Mars they'd suddenly discover a need to "liberate it".
Actually since no one is living there, I suspect we would simply annex
it, begin exploitation and dare anyone to say otherwise or act against
us.
First Bush would go on tv and make a speech - he'd say that microscopic
life has been discovered on Mars and he has "reliable intelligence"
that in a couple of billion years they could evolve into sentience and
build weapons of mass destruction. So we had better act now, before
Martian nukes are raining down on Crawford, TX.
The funny part is that Punnadhammo actually believes all this.

- j
Awaken21
2003-10-17 14:52:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by jhayati
Post by punnadhammo
Post by Awaken21
Post by punnadhammo
Maybe if we could convince the american administration that there's oil
on Mars they'd suddenly discover a need to "liberate it".
Actually since no one is living there, I suspect we would simply annex
it, begin exploitation and dare anyone to say otherwise or act against
us.
First Bush would go on tv and make a speech - he'd say that microscopic
life has been discovered on Mars and he has "reliable intelligence"
that in a couple of billion years they could evolve into sentience and
build weapons of mass destruction. So we had better act now, before
Martian nukes are raining down on Crawford, TX.
The funny part is that Punnadhammo actually believes all this.
- j
The funny part is that you don't see relationship between what
actually happened and this.
jhayati
2003-10-16 01:50:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by punnadhammo
Post by Awaken21
Probably not very far at all, unfortunately. Funding for NASA was kept
alive all these years because of military interests. Space is the
ultimate strategic high ground and very powerful people within the US
military structure have been aware of this fact since the late
sixties. The US space program has had many powerful opponents over the
years and probably would not exist today if it didn't have military
applications.
Maybe if we could convince the american administration that there's oil
on Mars they'd suddenly discover a need to "liberate it".
Lol!

- j
Tengri
2003-11-01 03:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by cupcake
fuck the invasion of Asia! -- what the hell are we gonna
do about these fucking Islamics! ?
They arent *that* big a problem. Its basic underlying causes of
islamicism thats the problem. You'd be shocked to know if you dont
already know, how little about islam the so called islamic countrys
understand. They teach them the Quran by rote but dont teach them
what the words mean.

There was a kid on tv in pakistan chanting some slogan mantra and he
admits he doesnt know what the words mean. Christianity is the real
issue. Now if we could pit both against each other we could sit back
and watch the fireworks.

***@yahoo.com
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